Theme: AFTER TAX (Not BEFORE TAX? I don't get it. Please educate me on this!)
29A: Everything-must-go tax?: CLEARANCE SALES
112A: Generous endowment tax?: CHARITABLE GIFT
3D: Non-dropout's tax: FINISHING SCHOOL
10D: Bourgeoisie tax?: THIRD ESTATE
43D: REM tax?: DREAM STATE
45D: Whiskey tax?: HARD LIQUOR
49D: Tar-reduction tax?: FILTER CIGARETTE
71D: In-demand tax?: HOT PROPERTY
A quick question first: This puzzle appears on Star Tribune (Mpls) on April 20, 2008 Sunday. and I know that many of you solve this puzzle on a much later date. Pls let me know how long is your lag time. I only know for sure that this puzzle appears on The Globe and Mail (Canada) one day before us. You can either leave a comment here or send me an email. Thanks.
Now back the puzzle. It's a stunner! I thoroughly enjoyed solving it. Felt so silky and velvety. Much more delightful than last week's "The Masters" themed puzzle (too many stupid author names).
Great theme. Very topical. For those fellow TMS solvers in Asia, April 15 is American Tax Day. Some of our Editor's Sunday themes have been pretty impressive: the "Broken Heart" around Valentine's Day, the "Play Ball" when baseball season started, and "The Masters" when Masters Tournament was on. I was also pleased with yesterday's "Pope Benedict" tinted themeless puzzle. Good stuff.
I had a solid start, and breezed through most of the areas without being stumped. I did encounter some unfamiliar names, but most of them were inferable. I did get stalled in the upper middle corner though. I put ETTE for 14D, and I filled in EGRET for 21A. Did not know Former Airline of Eng. (BOAC), had no idea who was the character in "The Faerie Queene". Have heard of REMAND so often in "Law & Order", but I could not commit it to "Send back" for 11D. So, I was floundering in that wet & spongy ground until "I MEAN" lent me a solving hand.
I was also soaked in the SALAD OIL area for eons. I put OSSA instead of OSSO for 77D. And I wrongly put LIQUER instead of LIQUOR for 45D. My reference bk is "OED" instead of "ENC", and I just blanked on DHOTI. ONONDAGA was definitely beyond my ken of knowledge. So, my "Early course additive" became a strange mix of weird letters instead of a simple SALAD OIL.
All in all, an hour well spent. I hope you enjoyed this puzzle too.
ACROSS:
1A: Davenport: SOFA. Did the original manufacturer come from Davenport, IA?
10A: Clan: TRIBE
15A: Intro to physics?: META. The founding father of Metaphysics is Aristotle, isn't it? Meta also means self-referential.
21A: Wading bird: HERON
22A: Last bio?: OBIT
25A: "That is to say...": I MEAN. I felt stupid tanking on this one.
27A: Certain vacuum tube: TRIODE. Unknown to me. It's "a vacuum tube containing three elements, usually anode, cathode, and control grid." See here.
36A: Singer Travis: TRITT. Stranger to me. Looks like he is an accomplished country music singer/writer. Watched "My Cousin Vinny" before, did not realize that he wrote the lyric for the song"Bible Belt".
37A: Small salmon: COHOS. Saw it before, but I forgot. It's also called "silver salmon" or "silvers". Wikipedia says "Its popularity (in Pacific Northwest) is due in part to the reckless abandon which it frequently displays chasing bait and lure while in salt water". Very interesting. Even fish have reckless behavior. They still look pretty big.
39A: Narrowing: TAPERED. Not TAPERING? I don't get this one.
42A: Rx watchdog: FDA (Food and Drug Administration). Hard to trust those folks! Don't they all go to pharmaceutical lobbying firms eventually? American Health Care system is definitely FUBAR.
44A: State of the union: IDAHO. I was thinking of Bush's State of Union address.
46A: Israeli guns: UZIS. Did not realize UZI was named after its designer Uzi Gal. I got very excited after seeing letter Z & Q, thought this might be a pangrammatic grid (containing all 26 letter), but alas, I could not find J or X.
47A: Like a requiem: DIRGEFUL
52A: Succeeded big: GONE FAR
54A: Nasty kid: BRAT. Wow, isn't the clue a bit too harsh?
55A: One of the French: UNE. Saw Vanessa Paradis' "Une Chance Sur Deux" before?
57A: Chang's twin: ENG. The Siamese Twins. Eng and Chang Bunker. 22 children between them, unbelievable, how did they accomplish that?
58A: Use a grenade to a fellow solider: FRAG. I have a muted reaction to this word today after learning its meaning from Dennis last time.
60A: California county: ALAMEDA. I've never heard of it. Strung it together from the down clues.
62A: "Paper Lion" star: ALDA. I guessed. I've never watched "Paper Lion".
66A: Ollie's chum: STAN
67A: Photo finish: MATTE
69A: Reference bk.: ENC (Encyclopedia)
70A: Clasp tight: CLENCH
72A: Actor Borgnine: ERNEST. Could not remember him clearly. But the answer is highly inferable.
76A: Hindu loincloth: DHOTI. Alright, he is wearing DHOTI. So clumsy!
80A: Mediterranean country: MALTA. I tend to confuse MALTA with YALTA (the Yalta Conference).
82A: Actor/director Tarantino: QUENTIN. Where did I see his name before? A recent TMS puzzle?
86A: Scoria: SLAG. Did not know the meaning of "Scoria". Latin for scum.
94A: Early course additive: SALAD OIL
96A: Old-time newspaper section: ROTO. Please take next week off, I've seen you enough this week.
97A: Son of Eber: PELEG. Literally "division". So called because "in his days was the earth divided", according to dictionary.com.
99A: Lethal stuff: POISONS. Did not know that "stuff"'s plural is still "Stuff".
101A: Jungle vine: LIANA. Here is a picture. See those intertwining climbers?
104A: Fable finale: MORAL
108A: Crunch of cereal?: CAP'N. No idea. I don't eat cereal for breakfast.
109A: First name in architecture: EERO. His father is ELIEL (Sarrinen).
117A: Cheerful: UPBEAT
119A: Carol of "Taxi": KANE. Took an educated guess. I don't know her.
120A: Muslim VIP: var: AMEER. I thought of EMEER first, but then President TAFT said NO.
121A: Actress Lindsay: LOHAN. Know her. One of the "Mean Girls". She has ruined her once promising career.
123A: Gridder Graham: OTTO. Vaguely remembered him. Easily gettable from the down clues. Bet this word "Gridder" baffles many of our fellow TMS solvers in Asia. It's American football player.
125A: Top position: FIRST. My mind was picturing something else! Teehee!
126A: Napped leather: SUEDE
127A: British gun: STEN. And UZIS earlier, this is one powerful puzzle.
129A: Peevish: TESTY
130A: Rich tapestry: ARRAS. Whoa! This obsession with ARRAS has to stop!
DOWN:
1D: Infected: SEPTIC
2D: Exaggerate: OVERDO
4D: Sax for Bird: ALTO. Had no idea that ALTO could also be instrument. Did not know that "Bird" was Charlie Parker's nickname. In fact, I've barely heard of Charlie Parker. Good clue though.
7D: Safe place: SANCTA. Plural of SANCTUM.
8D: Mountains of Russia: URAL. Why is "Mountains" in plural form? Wouldn't that dictate "URALS" as an answer?
9D: Fictional Jane: EYRE
11D: Send back: REMAND
12D: "The Faerie Queen" character: IRENA. No idea, I've never heard of "The Faerie Queen". Actually I could not find IRENA in the list of major characters, where was she?
13D: Former airline of Eng.: BOAC (British Overseas Airways Cooperations). Now British Airways.
14D: Feminine ending: ENNE
15D: Back tooth: MOLAR
16D: Levi's "Christ Stopped at __": EBOLI. Somehow I put EBOLA, so my 36A Singer was TRATT, which looked like a reasonable name to me.
17D: Lhasa's land: TIBET. Here is a good quote from Dalai Lama during his visit to Mayo Clinic on Wednesday: "If there is no solution, why worry? If there is a solution, why worry?" So, don't worry, be happy!
18D: 1950's Bikini blast: A TEST (Atomic Test)
28D: Alienate: DISAFFECT
30D: Antennae: AERIALS
31D: Dateless: STAG
34D: Depository for goods: STORAGE
40D: Tavern near a tube station: PUB. Hmm, I could picture that pub and its endless supple of ALE.
41D: Pound of poetry: EZRA
42D: Locate: FIND
47D: Chaperones: DUENNAS. No idea.
50D: Submarine: UNDERSEA
51D: Where the kine dine: LEA. I like the rhyme of the clue.
52D: Heredity information carrier: GENE
53D: Tribe of the Five Nations: ONONDAGA. A disaster for me. Here is the complete list: "Mohawk, Oneida, Onondaga, Cayuga, and Seneca, and, after the 18th century, the Tuscarora."
59D: Overly polite and refined: GENTEEL
61D: School teacher of the Old West: MARM. Need your help on this one. I could not find it in my dictionary.
68D: Riding fast: AT A GALLOP. Very nice.
73D: Certain conic section: ELLIPSE
75D: Egyptian god of sun: ATEN. Could also be spelled as "ATON". Utterly beyond my grasp!
77D: Peak in Thessaly: OSSA. MT. OSSA.
79D: Storing, as grain: SILOING. Did not know that SILO could also be a verb.
82D: Bandleader Brown of renown: LES
84D: "Exodus"author: URIS
91D: Slime: GOO
99D: Most ashen: PALEST
100D: Of the underworld: NETHER
102D: More tidy: NEATER. I am not fond of today's DOWN clues overall, too many "er, est, ing".
103D: Play start: ACT ONE
104D: Jim of "ABC's Wide World of Sports": McKAY. Was he in the movie "Munich"? I could not remember it clearly. I like his "Thrill of victory, agony of defeat".
105D: Busy hub: O'HARE. Don't like the clue. Too arbitrary.
106D: Arrested: RAN IN
108D: Talking truckers: CB'ERS. Do they still use CB radio now? You'd think they all have cell phones.
110D: Mystical characters: RUNES
113D: 27th President: TAFT. The only US president to serve on the Supreme Court. TAFT family has been pretty active in US political arena (OHIO). What a disaster for Bob TAFT!
115D: Ingrid's "Casablanca" role: ILSA. Where is Rick?
118D: Flapdoodle: BOSH. I've never heard anyone say "Flapdoodle" before.
122D: Vladimir Nabokov novel: ADA. Learned from doing crossword. I've never read the book. Might give a "Lolita" if I have time, that's a big IF.
C.C.
29A: Everything-must-go tax?: CLEARANCE SALES
112A: Generous endowment tax?: CHARITABLE GIFT
3D: Non-dropout's tax: FINISHING SCHOOL
10D: Bourgeoisie tax?: THIRD ESTATE
43D: REM tax?: DREAM STATE
45D: Whiskey tax?: HARD LIQUOR
49D: Tar-reduction tax?: FILTER CIGARETTE
71D: In-demand tax?: HOT PROPERTY
A quick question first: This puzzle appears on Star Tribune (Mpls) on April 20, 2008 Sunday. and I know that many of you solve this puzzle on a much later date. Pls let me know how long is your lag time. I only know for sure that this puzzle appears on The Globe and Mail (Canada) one day before us. You can either leave a comment here or send me an email. Thanks.
Now back the puzzle. It's a stunner! I thoroughly enjoyed solving it. Felt so silky and velvety. Much more delightful than last week's "The Masters" themed puzzle (too many stupid author names).
Great theme. Very topical. For those fellow TMS solvers in Asia, April 15 is American Tax Day. Some of our Editor's Sunday themes have been pretty impressive: the "Broken Heart" around Valentine's Day, the "Play Ball" when baseball season started, and "The Masters" when Masters Tournament was on. I was also pleased with yesterday's "Pope Benedict" tinted themeless puzzle. Good stuff.
I had a solid start, and breezed through most of the areas without being stumped. I did encounter some unfamiliar names, but most of them were inferable. I did get stalled in the upper middle corner though. I put ETTE for 14D, and I filled in EGRET for 21A. Did not know Former Airline of Eng. (BOAC), had no idea who was the character in "The Faerie Queene". Have heard of REMAND so often in "Law & Order", but I could not commit it to "Send back" for 11D. So, I was floundering in that wet & spongy ground until "I MEAN" lent me a solving hand.
I was also soaked in the SALAD OIL area for eons. I put OSSA instead of OSSO for 77D. And I wrongly put LIQUER instead of LIQUOR for 45D. My reference bk is "OED" instead of "ENC", and I just blanked on DHOTI. ONONDAGA was definitely beyond my ken of knowledge. So, my "Early course additive" became a strange mix of weird letters instead of a simple SALAD OIL.
All in all, an hour well spent. I hope you enjoyed this puzzle too.
ACROSS:
1A: Davenport: SOFA. Did the original manufacturer come from Davenport, IA?
10A: Clan: TRIBE
15A: Intro to physics?: META. The founding father of Metaphysics is Aristotle, isn't it? Meta also means self-referential.
21A: Wading bird: HERON
22A: Last bio?: OBIT
25A: "That is to say...": I MEAN. I felt stupid tanking on this one.
27A: Certain vacuum tube: TRIODE. Unknown to me. It's "a vacuum tube containing three elements, usually anode, cathode, and control grid." See here.
36A: Singer Travis: TRITT. Stranger to me. Looks like he is an accomplished country music singer/writer. Watched "My Cousin Vinny" before, did not realize that he wrote the lyric for the song"Bible Belt".
37A: Small salmon: COHOS. Saw it before, but I forgot. It's also called "silver salmon" or "silvers". Wikipedia says "Its popularity (in Pacific Northwest) is due in part to the reckless abandon which it frequently displays chasing bait and lure while in salt water". Very interesting. Even fish have reckless behavior. They still look pretty big.
39A: Narrowing: TAPERED. Not TAPERING? I don't get this one.
42A: Rx watchdog: FDA (Food and Drug Administration). Hard to trust those folks! Don't they all go to pharmaceutical lobbying firms eventually? American Health Care system is definitely FUBAR.
44A: State of the union: IDAHO. I was thinking of Bush's State of Union address.
46A: Israeli guns: UZIS. Did not realize UZI was named after its designer Uzi Gal. I got very excited after seeing letter Z & Q, thought this might be a pangrammatic grid (containing all 26 letter), but alas, I could not find J or X.
47A: Like a requiem: DIRGEFUL
52A: Succeeded big: GONE FAR
54A: Nasty kid: BRAT. Wow, isn't the clue a bit too harsh?
55A: One of the French: UNE. Saw Vanessa Paradis' "Une Chance Sur Deux" before?
57A: Chang's twin: ENG. The Siamese Twins. Eng and Chang Bunker. 22 children between them, unbelievable, how did they accomplish that?
58A: Use a grenade to a fellow solider: FRAG. I have a muted reaction to this word today after learning its meaning from Dennis last time.
60A: California county: ALAMEDA. I've never heard of it. Strung it together from the down clues.
62A: "Paper Lion" star: ALDA. I guessed. I've never watched "Paper Lion".
66A: Ollie's chum: STAN
67A: Photo finish: MATTE
69A: Reference bk.: ENC (Encyclopedia)
70A: Clasp tight: CLENCH
72A: Actor Borgnine: ERNEST. Could not remember him clearly. But the answer is highly inferable.
76A: Hindu loincloth: DHOTI. Alright, he is wearing DHOTI. So clumsy!
80A: Mediterranean country: MALTA. I tend to confuse MALTA with YALTA (the Yalta Conference).
82A: Actor/director Tarantino: QUENTIN. Where did I see his name before? A recent TMS puzzle?
86A: Scoria: SLAG. Did not know the meaning of "Scoria". Latin for scum.
94A: Early course additive: SALAD OIL
96A: Old-time newspaper section: ROTO. Please take next week off, I've seen you enough this week.
97A: Son of Eber: PELEG. Literally "division". So called because "in his days was the earth divided", according to dictionary.com.
99A: Lethal stuff: POISONS. Did not know that "stuff"'s plural is still "Stuff".
101A: Jungle vine: LIANA. Here is a picture. See those intertwining climbers?
104A: Fable finale: MORAL
108A: Crunch of cereal?: CAP'N. No idea. I don't eat cereal for breakfast.
109A: First name in architecture: EERO. His father is ELIEL (Sarrinen).
117A: Cheerful: UPBEAT
119A: Carol of "Taxi": KANE. Took an educated guess. I don't know her.
120A: Muslim VIP: var: AMEER. I thought of EMEER first, but then President TAFT said NO.
121A: Actress Lindsay: LOHAN. Know her. One of the "Mean Girls". She has ruined her once promising career.
123A: Gridder Graham: OTTO. Vaguely remembered him. Easily gettable from the down clues. Bet this word "Gridder" baffles many of our fellow TMS solvers in Asia. It's American football player.
125A: Top position: FIRST. My mind was picturing something else! Teehee!
126A: Napped leather: SUEDE
127A: British gun: STEN. And UZIS earlier, this is one powerful puzzle.
129A: Peevish: TESTY
130A: Rich tapestry: ARRAS. Whoa! This obsession with ARRAS has to stop!
DOWN:
1D: Infected: SEPTIC
2D: Exaggerate: OVERDO
4D: Sax for Bird: ALTO. Had no idea that ALTO could also be instrument. Did not know that "Bird" was Charlie Parker's nickname. In fact, I've barely heard of Charlie Parker. Good clue though.
7D: Safe place: SANCTA. Plural of SANCTUM.
8D: Mountains of Russia: URAL. Why is "Mountains" in plural form? Wouldn't that dictate "URALS" as an answer?
9D: Fictional Jane: EYRE
11D: Send back: REMAND
12D: "The Faerie Queen" character: IRENA. No idea, I've never heard of "The Faerie Queen". Actually I could not find IRENA in the list of major characters, where was she?
13D: Former airline of Eng.: BOAC (British Overseas Airways Cooperations). Now British Airways.
14D: Feminine ending: ENNE
15D: Back tooth: MOLAR
16D: Levi's "Christ Stopped at __": EBOLI. Somehow I put EBOLA, so my 36A Singer was TRATT, which looked like a reasonable name to me.
17D: Lhasa's land: TIBET. Here is a good quote from Dalai Lama during his visit to Mayo Clinic on Wednesday: "If there is no solution, why worry? If there is a solution, why worry?" So, don't worry, be happy!
18D: 1950's Bikini blast: A TEST (Atomic Test)
28D: Alienate: DISAFFECT
30D: Antennae: AERIALS
31D: Dateless: STAG
34D: Depository for goods: STORAGE
40D: Tavern near a tube station: PUB. Hmm, I could picture that pub and its endless supple of ALE.
41D: Pound of poetry: EZRA
42D: Locate: FIND
47D: Chaperones: DUENNAS. No idea.
50D: Submarine: UNDERSEA
51D: Where the kine dine: LEA. I like the rhyme of the clue.
52D: Heredity information carrier: GENE
53D: Tribe of the Five Nations: ONONDAGA. A disaster for me. Here is the complete list: "Mohawk, Oneida, Onondaga, Cayuga, and Seneca, and, after the 18th century, the Tuscarora."
59D: Overly polite and refined: GENTEEL
61D: School teacher of the Old West: MARM. Need your help on this one. I could not find it in my dictionary.
68D: Riding fast: AT A GALLOP. Very nice.
73D: Certain conic section: ELLIPSE
75D: Egyptian god of sun: ATEN. Could also be spelled as "ATON". Utterly beyond my grasp!
77D: Peak in Thessaly: OSSA. MT. OSSA.
79D: Storing, as grain: SILOING. Did not know that SILO could also be a verb.
82D: Bandleader Brown of renown: LES
84D: "Exodus"author: URIS
91D: Slime: GOO
99D: Most ashen: PALEST
100D: Of the underworld: NETHER
102D: More tidy: NEATER. I am not fond of today's DOWN clues overall, too many "er, est, ing".
103D: Play start: ACT ONE
104D: Jim of "ABC's Wide World of Sports": McKAY. Was he in the movie "Munich"? I could not remember it clearly. I like his "Thrill of victory, agony of defeat".
105D: Busy hub: O'HARE. Don't like the clue. Too arbitrary.
106D: Arrested: RAN IN
108D: Talking truckers: CB'ERS. Do they still use CB radio now? You'd think they all have cell phones.
110D: Mystical characters: RUNES
113D: 27th President: TAFT. The only US president to serve on the Supreme Court. TAFT family has been pretty active in US political arena (OHIO). What a disaster for Bob TAFT!
115D: Ingrid's "Casablanca" role: ILSA. Where is Rick?
118D: Flapdoodle: BOSH. I've never heard anyone say "Flapdoodle" before.
122D: Vladimir Nabokov novel: ADA. Learned from doing crossword. I've never read the book. Might give a "Lolita" if I have time, that's a big IF.
C.C.
School'marm' I picked up with a brief encounter with Louis L'Amour novels. I also went with egret and ette which made I mean & remand hard to solve.
ReplyDeleteWhen I got the I mean from you it all fell together. Thanks for your Blog ,Tom
Tom,
ReplyDeleteOh, the schoolmarm, thank you.
Made it without googling! I saw some references to things I said in earlier puzzles. Chang and Eng Bunker from Siam were here. Dennis - remember I said on of these days we would get a puzzle in runes? Runes was here also. Ernest Borgnine made it back as well as roto for newspaper section. A different variation of emeer this time (ameer).
ReplyDeleteI think the after taxes could refer to it being "after" many of us suffered the "bloodletting" as someone said in previous comments regarding our taxes.
I also had egret and ette at first. Never heard of duennas for chaperone so that was one I looked up after completion because the across clues made that the answer (so I guess in a way I did need confirmation from an outside source.
It is BOAC (British Overseas Airway Corporation).
Thought about school courses instead of dinner courses for awhile.
A pencil point is narrowing at the end and so is tapered (I guess).
Chang and Eng could stretch the band of flesh joining them at the chest so one could turn his back. Still, a bit of discreetness would be needed.
I remembered school marm as well.
I do think Jim McKay was in the movie Munich as he was the sportscaster at those Olympics.
All in all, this one was pretty easy.
Happy Sunday!
Sorry C.C. I was reading your commentary before the answers where you had ROAC but you changed it in the answers to BOAC.
ReplyDeleteGood morning, drdad
ReplyDeleteYeah, I remember clearly your Chang and ENG Bunker comment last time. Not surprised at all that RUNES made an appearance today. It's NOT the first time that your remarks were picked up by the editor!
I've added DUENNAS to the entry. I forgot about it earlier. It's a new word to me too.
How long did you spend on this puzzle?
Oh by the way, Dennis does not have access to Sunday puzzle. But he might check in later.
Oh drdad,
ReplyDeleteI need to digest what you said about AFTER TAX. I am not fully convinced.
About 45-50 minutes and two cups of coffee. I'm not sure my reasoning for "after taxes" is correct but it sure fits my situation. "After" the "taxes" bloodletting/profuse bleeding I suffered, I couldn't afford any of the taxes mentioned in this puzzle. Perhaps another way to look at it is that the particular tax in the answer always came after the descriptive part, e.g. "clearance sales" and "finishing school" taxes.
ReplyDeleteGood day everyone. Good puzzle, took about an hour with a few interruptions in between. I also had 14D as ette and 21A as egret. Once I got Thirdestate for 6D heron was a given heron for 21A and the rest fell into place . Thanks to Dennis I knew 58A from a previous puzzle. For 118D I could not decide on bosh or gosh and I had trouble for awhile recognizing upbeat for 117A. I do agree with drdad that the after tax theme means the tax comes after the descriptive part. I also did not know duennas as chaperone. I had never heard the word.
ReplyDeleteYou all have a good Sunday and I will see you Monday morning.
drdad & dick,
ReplyDeleteMy mind has been fixed upon this "Before Tax" concept. All those red-letter words come before tax: Cigarette Tax, Estate Tax, Liquor Tax, Property Tax, etc.
I had a problem with narrowing resulting in tapered. The pencil explanation works (I guess!) Alto is not an instrument, but many instruments have their range as part of their name: alto saxophone, alto flute, tenor sax, etc.
ReplyDeleteGot stumped on Irena and I mean too. Rest went quite smoothly.
ReplyDeleteGlob and Mail didn't make it to me until today - bus or weather problems - or both.
Tax day in Canada isn't until Apr. 30!
KW
i'vebeentominot,
ReplyDeleteYeah, drdad's pencil explanation worked for me too.
KW,
I thought Tom (at 5:56am) was you. Sorry about the late delivery of your paper. See you next Sunday.
Absolutely agree about the theme. Even though it is after Tax Day, all the theme answers are before "tax".
ReplyDeleteEboli is part of an easily confused crossword trio, especially if you have only part of the answer:
Eboli - town in Italy ("Christ stopped at..")
E Coli - bacteria in lower intestines that occasionally is found in uncooked meats
Ebola - extremely dangerous virus.
My other favorite is the duo for "Leslie Caron movie": "Gigi" and "Lili".