Friday, October 25, 2019 David Alfred Bywaters

"Jack and the Beanstalk"

17. Bingeing on chicken pieces?: WING FEEDING.   - Wing Ding

 

26. Roman naturalist's baseball-playing namesake?: PLINY THE FIELDER.  - Pliny the Elder

 
43. Prize coveted by competitive trees?: BEST OF THE FOREST.  - Best of the rest

57. Sports Officialdom Illustrated cover image?: PHOTO OF UMPS.  - Photo ops

 "Ari, get the press ready for photo ops in the White House lawn.  I'll be pardoning the Thanksgiving turkey."   And then this happened:

37. Source of the fairy-tale sequence that creates four long puzzle puns: GIANT.



Across:

1. Bewildered: DAZED. and confused. - Led Zeppelin.

6. Public row: SCENE.

11. Friend: PAL.

14. Missouri tribe: OSAGE.

15. Lake that ultimately feeds 8-Down: HURON.    And... 8(D):  Lake ultimately fed by 15-Across: ERIE.

16. "__ we good?": ARE.

19. Meadow: LEA.

20. Vote against: NAY.

21. Employee's request: RAISE.

22. Tale of Achilles and Agamemnon: ILIAD.

24. Tasting room container: CASK.

25. Soon, to a bard: ANON. This was the prevalent definition way back when.
In the age of internutland, it's the abbreviation for a poster that writes under the cloak of anonymity.

33. Climbing and passing places: LANEs.  For any flatlanders:  "Large vehicles can present problems for other traffic on hilly terrain and may lead to risky passing behavior with limited sight distances. Climbing lanes provide additional capacity on uphill grades to allow faster traffic to pass slower traffic without the increased risk of making the passing maneuver in the opposing traffic lane."  US DOT 

34. Preserves, in a way: CANs.

35. "Hooray!": RAH.

36. Inch, e.g.: UNIT.

39. Interlaced: WOVE.

40. Executive gp.: MGT.

41. Chart entries: HITs.

42. Tailed orbiter: COMET.

47. Negotiate a green: PUTT.  One thousand one,  one thousand two,  one thousand three...

Never a doubt !

48. Echelon: RANK.  Yeoman is not a rank.

49. Airport conveyors, or what are sometimes placed on them: BELTs.

51. Wispy clouds: CIRRI.  

53. Spanish she-bear: OSA.

56. __ Today: USA.

60. Apple product: MAC.

61. Superficial: OUTER.

62. Boredom: ENNUI.

 63. Take to court: SUE.

64. Is crowded (with): TEEMs.

65. Falls from the sky: RAINs.

Down:

1. Low: DOWN.  Glum.  Melancholy.

2. Nearly 9% of Earth's surface area: ASIA.

3. Half-baked: ZANY.

4. Chicken producer: EGG.

5. Pays a share of: DEFRAYs.  Paul Coulter used defray in last Tuesday's puzzle.

6. Arab leader: SHEIKH.

7. Subjects of bovine mastication: CUDs.

9. Denial from Denis: NON.

10. Auto mechanic's concerns: ENGINEs.

11. Pop or tot, e.g.: PALINDROME.  Evil olive. 

12. Bailiwick: AREA.

13. Heavy metal: LEAD.   Listen to the band cited at 1A for an example.   Rolling Stone's ranking of the 40 Greatest Led Zeppelin Songs

18. Right on the map: EAST.

23. Web prefix with cat: LOL.

Know Your Memes: LOLcats

24. Tech review website: CNET.

25. "__ Nobody's Business": blues standard: AIN'T.    Always liked the clue "Is not wrong."

26. Assess the depth of: PLUMB.   This word was also in last Tuesday's puzzle. 

27. "Blue Sky" Oscar winner: LANGE.   Tommy Lee Jones and Jessica Lange starred.

28. Where everything should be: IN ITS PLACE.

29. Online money: ECASH.

30. Ventilation source: FAN.

31. Roof edges: EAVES.

32. "I can't go all my life waiting to catch you between husbands" speaker: RHETT.   "Where shall I go?  What shall I do?"    "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn."

37. Donation: GIFT.

38. Big comm. company, once: ITT.     ITT_Inc.

39. __ load: WORK.  

41. Trendy nightclub: HOTSPOT.   The best hotspots in '80s Houston were in the Galleria area of the West 610 loop.    Gilley's wasn't bad, but it was a long drive from the NW side.


42. Pine, e.g.: CONIFER.

44. Son of Akhenaten: TUT.    By an undetermined wife.   His stepmother was Queen Nefertiti.   Nefertiti and Akhenaten had a daughter that Tut married.  So he married his stepsister and his stepmother was his mother in law. - Summarized from a NatGeo reading.

45. Box score statistic: ERRORS.  2 by the Nats and 1 by the Stros in this game:

46. Gambling game involving matching cards: FARO.

49. Borrows without returning: BUMS. 

50. Jacob's brother: ESAU.

51. Dove home: COTE.

What is a dovecote?

Sheep and pigeons also live in cotes.

52. List part: ITEM.

53. Hyatt competitor: OMNI.

54. Like a web: SPUN.

55. Sale warning: AS IS.

58. Tint: HUE.

59. Duessa's foe in Spenser's "The Faerie Queene": UNA.   The Faerie Queene - Characters


Check you entries against this grid:

Notes from C.C.:
 
Look who are here: Lemonade,  his wife Oo and Jeffrey Wechsler. Lemonade said "We had a very nice long visit, the only benefit of a long layover on our way home from visiting Oo’s mother and son".

Friday, October 18, 2019 David Alfred Bywaters

"The Ess Sense of Questionable New Phrases"

17. Iranian vocal improvisation?: PERSIAN SCAT.

24. Household employee's fraudulent ruse?: NANNY SCAM.

38. Nursery school air fresheners?: DAYCARE SCENTERS.

50. Poem that seemed awfully profound at the bar last night?: PUB SCRAWL.

62. What optical character recognition software often produces?: GARBAGE SCAN.

Across:

1. Show anxiety, in a way: PACE.

5. No good: FUTILE.

11. Prankster's projectile: EGG. 

14. Excited response to a cue: I'M ON.   It's showtime.   Break a leg !

15. Pressed: IRONED.

16. Also: TOO.

19. Primitive dwelling: HUT.   The original Pizza Hut:

20. Furniture cleaning brand: ENDUST.

21. Bar __: CAR.

22. Assistant: AIDE.

23. Web address: URL.   Uniform Resource Locator

26. Approve: AGREE TO.

29. Put into words: SAY.  Phrase.

30. Preface to a conviction: IMO.   In My Opinion.  A conviction as in a firmly held belief.

31. Product warning: AS IS.    I remember one particular auctioneer's call at the start of the auction: "You are buying as is, how is, where is."  

34. Sew up again: REHEM. 

42. First name in black-and-white photos: ANSEL.

43. Stash: STOW.

44. Cabinet dept.: AGRiculture.  "Founded in 1862, President Abraham Lincoln signed into law an act of Congress establishing the United States Department of Agriculture.   Two and one-half years later, in what would be his final annual message to the Congress; Lincoln called USDA "The People's Department."   At that time, about half of all Americans lived on farms, compared with about 2 percent today."   USDA.gov/About

45. Born, in Brussels: NEE.

47. Smidge, to a laddie: WEE DROP.  

55. Realtor's unit: LOT.

56. Words of understanding: I SEE.

57. Shad product: ROE.

58. Tabloid output: SLEAZE.

61. Catch: NAB.

64. I problem?: EGO.

65. Purpose: INTENT.

66. "This is terrible!": OH NO.

67. Intl. Talk Like a Pirate Day month: SEPtember.   Arrgh !

68. Sudden reactions: STARTS. - Start:  "...of Germanic origin; related to Dutch storten ‘push’ and German stürzen ‘fall headlong, fling’.  From the sense ‘sudden movement’ arose the sense ‘initiation of movement, setting out on a journey’ and hence ‘beginning of a process, etc.’."

69. Crucial things: KEYS.   "People say that money is not the key to happiness, but I always figured if you have enough money, you can have a key made." - Joan Rivers.

Down:

1. Plumbing item: PIPE.

2. "So be it!": AMEN.

3. Casual pants: CORDUROYs.   The term corduroy comes from an 18th century English word for coarse woolen cloth (duroy) and cord, for the wales.

4. Make certain: ENSURE.   Ascertain.

5. Decree: FIAT.   Derisively, the car FIAT is an initialism for Failure In Automotive Technology.

6. Item near a sugar bowl, perhaps: URN.

7. Opera about an opera singer: TOSCA.  theopera101.com - operas - tosca

8. Peruvian of old: INCAN.

9. Comes to realize: LEARNS.

10. Summer CT clock setting: EDT.

11. Moral principle: ETHIC.

12. Big wheel in delis: GOUDA.  This isn't South Holland, Michigan:


18. Hebrides unit: ISLE.

22. So far: AS YET. 

24. Pokes (around): NOSES.   Into someone else's affairs or belongings.  Snoops.

25. Knitter's need: YARN.   Hello, Madame Defarge !

26. Opera about an African princess: AIDA.   Synopsis of Verdi's Opera, Aida

27. Gangster movie hero, perhaps: GMAN.  And 13D. 27-Down's victorious words: GOT 'EM.

28. Sailor: TAR.

32. Follower's suffix: IST.

33. Displeased look: SCOWL.  

35. Sad song subject: HEARTACHE.


36. Cogito __ sum: ERGO.   I blog, therefore I am.

37. Car sticker amt.: MSRP.   Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price.   Kelley Blue Book - What is MSRP ?

39. Perfume with myrrh, say: CENSE.   Turns out cense is a verb (archaic),   therefore,   perfume is a verb rather than a noun in this clue.   We know the modern word as incense, in both noun and verb forms.   And for the second definition of the modern form in past tense, "The rookie solver was incensed with this clue."

40. Actor Guinness: ALEC.   Sir Alec Guinness

41. Lamb's dam: EWE.   Cute clue !

46. Roaming, like a knight: ERRANT.   Errant: 2. - archaic•literary: traveling in search of adventure.

48. Palindromic Parisian pronoun: ELLE.

49. Performs adequately: DOES OK.   On the second day in one of my first staff positions early in my career,  I was led down the hall by the director who introduced me to the regional vice president. "Middle of the pack is not acceptable" was all he said, meaning doing OK was not sufficient.    I guess he wasn't satisfied with the latest numbers that had come in. 

50. Longs: PINES.   A typically rural and olden usage. 

51. Treatment: USAGE.

52. Jazz style: BEBOP.  Dizzy Gillespie came to mind.

53. Vital vessel: AORTA.  Vessel: 3. - Anatomy•Zoology: a duct or canal holding or conveying blood or other fluid.

54. Barbecue brand: WEBER.   This is the design of the original Weber Genesis grill in 1985.   I bought a new one in 1989, thinking that the almost $400 price tag was steep, but it is going strong thirty years later, and I've never had to replace a single part.  My bottom shelves are composite rather than the wire rack shown.

58. Some NCOs: SGTs. Non Commissioned Officers: Sergeants. Pairs with 62D. Base figs.: GIs.  GI is an initialism for either Government Issue or General Issue because of the general items disbursed to soldiers and army airmen. Over time, GI came to mean a soldier.

59. Wacko: ZANY.  Not my cuppa for humor. 

60. First chimp in orbit: ENOS.  "Enos was the second chimpanzee launched into space by NASA. He was the first chimpanzee, and third hominid after cosmonauts Yuri Gagarin and Gherman Titov, to achieve Earth orbit. Enos' flight occurred on November 29, 1961."  - Wikipedia.  

63. Small colonist: ANT. Easy, but cute.


Check your answers against this grid:

Notes from C.C.:

Just heard from Dennis. He's recovering nicely. Already off all pain meds. Right now he's in the step-down unit and he hopes to be home next Monday. 

Thanks for the thoughts and prayers.

Friday, October 11, 2019, Jeffrey Wechsler

The Game is Afoot! (This was foreshadowed Monday). I am sure iamb going to pay for my work here, but let's have some fun and peek behind the curtain.

Special collaboration to recognize the 150th published Los Angeles Times puzzle set by Jeffrey Wechsler.  He recently passed Barry Silk as the second most published at the LAT since the Corner switch.  We have conspired to show you exactly what happened between JW submitting the puzzle and its reaching publication. So let's start the ride. It will take some time but relax and enjoy it. JW's comments are in this color. Lemon comments are logically orange, and TTP's are the black ones.

Constructor’s note: 

Creating clues for crosswords can be a mixture of drudgery and creativity.  Writing between 70 to 78 clues for an average puzzle can be time-consuming and tedious, but every once in a while, a really clever or humorous idea for a clue comes along and just about makes the whole process worthwhile.   But editors have an important role to play as well.  Besides the job of straightforward editing for accuracy, spelling, grammar, and style, editors have to consider clue length and potential repetition of past clues.  And perhaps most importantly, editors have generally been accomplished constructors before they become editors, so they have the necessary creativity and experience to devise interesting clues.  Therefore, a constructor will occasionally get credit for an excellent clue that was actually devised by the editor.  (Of course, there are times that a clue considered quite clever by the constructor is not equally appreciated by the editor, and the original clue disappears, to the constructor’s dismay.)  In the crossword field, editors have the final say; a constructor will not know about any clue changes until the puzzle is published.  Because this aspect of the crossword world may be relatively unknown to most solvers, today’s constructor and reviewers present a behind-the-curtain peek at cluing.  We hope it is interesting and enlightening. 

"Needing a LEG Up"

Each of these 4 theme answers requires that you borrow an E and a G from an intersecting Down answer.   You probably first noticed that the two letters were EG, and then without hesitation noticed that each occurrence also was on top of an L, so four cases where a LEG goes up. 

15. Vermont alma mater of Alan Arkin and Peter Dinklage: BENNINGTON COLLEGE.  Bennington College.
They have many others including Betty Ford. LIST.

29. Coin of the realm: LEGAL TENDER.  Legal Tender

39. "MythBusters" target: URBAN LEGEND.  Urban Legend

55. '50s-'70s carrier with a Pittsburgh hub: ALLEGHENY AIRLINES.  Allegheny Airlines. USAIR to American Airlines.
Original clue: [Defunct carrier with a Pittsburgh hub].  The decades of the airline’s existence offer useful information and I appreciate the addition

63. Assistance, with "a" ... and literal assistance in solving the four longest answers: LEG UP.
Original clue: [Assistance – and literal assistance for solving the starred clues]. The suggested method of using starred clues was ditched -- I can never figure out why or when the “starred clues” system will be accepted or rejected.  And of course, that mention of “a” is quite useful

Borrowing a page from Husker Gary's playbook, I'm linking the grid here:

Across:

1. Long-term astronaut's home: Abbr.: ISS.  International Space Station - NASA

4. Old TWA competitor: PAN AM.
Original clue: [TWA competitor].  TWA and Pan Am are both defunct and from the same era, so I didn’t think further definition was needed.  The editor provided the “old”

9. FBI figure: AGT.  Agent

12. Mauna __: KEA.   If it's fill in the blank and three letters, enter the A in the third square, and check the perps to determine LO or KE. I have had my clue (It is higher than LOA) rejected by Rich Norris, C.C. and Jeffrey, but I still like it).

13. Sister of Terpsichore: ERATO.  Did not know Terpsichore. I never knew it it was pronounced (/tərpˈsɪkəriː/; Τερψιχόρη, "delight in dancing") who is one of the nine Muses and goddess of dance and chorus.

14. "But, as he was ambitious, I __ him" : Brutus: SLEW. JW gets his Shakespeare in early this week.

 The Evolution of Brutus

18. Provides with an alarm code, perhaps: ABETS.  Loved this clue / answer. 

19. Timeworn phrase: BROMIDE.  e.g. "Every cloud has a silver lining",  i.e. a platitude.  Very similar to clichés, which you should avoid like the plague.

20. Judicial prohibition: GAG ORDER.
Original clue: [Judicial attempt at secrecy].  The editor’s clue is accurate and terse.  Good call Does look like an improvement. 

24. Party nudge: OPEN IT.    "C'mon, OPEN IT !"
Original clue: [Christmas morning encouragement].  The editor’s clue is much harder, I think.  A “nudge” could be physical, not a verbal suggestion, and lots of parties don’t involve gift-giving Much harder for me.

25. "Bambi" doe: ENA.
Original clue: [Bambi relative].   Putting “Bambi” in quotes marks it as a title, and “doe” makes the answer female.  Careful editorial definition

26. Andy is her nephew: AUNT BEE.   There's Aunt Bee,  Andy,  Clara and ???  No idea either, anyone?
Original clue: [One attending to Opie].  The editing change makes the clue much harder.  Andy who?  There are a lot of Andys out there

28. Boomer?: TNT.   CSO to Boomer!

31. Disco era adjective: GO GO.
Original clue: [Type of 1960s dancer].  Equivalent, to my mind – each clue comes from a slightly different direction This edit is also more difficult for me.

32. Robert of "The Sopranos": ILER. A.J. SOPRANO.

33. "Got it": I SEE.

36. Infant's place in Hyde Park: PRAM.   That would be Hyde Park, London,  not Hyde Park, Chicago.

44. Gloaming, in verse: EE'N.
Original clue: [Poetic contraction meaning “yet”].  Ah, the ubiquitous EE'N, one of the many poetic saviors/bugbears of the crossword constructor!  I can understand that editors crave new ways to clue such words.  I appreciate “Gloaming” as an exquisitely poetic clue, but it is also likely mysterious in meaning to many solvers and therefore rather hard

45. NAPA store item: FAN BELT.   NAPA is the initialism for National Automotive Parts Association. 
Original clue: [Occasional auto engine replacement].  I suppose you must be familiar with NAPA to get the editor’s clue.  If so, no problem.  If not, your solving just hit the brakes

47. Green span: LEA.  I thought of Alan first, but the space between told me no.
Original clue: [Grazing place]  Because many of my puzzles are considered by commenters to be among the most difficult at the LA Times, I often try to maintain a certain proportion of simple clues.  The editor created a somewhat harder clue, although it’s quite evocative

48. Bothers, as one's conscience: NAGS AT.

50. Ali, per Ali: GREATEST.
Original clue: [Ali, as self-described].  Proper editorial terseness.  Brevity is the soul of wit

52. Perch in a lullaby: TREE TOP. Why do we tell babies to go to sleep after landing on their heads?

Rock-a-bye baby, in the treetop
When the wind blows, the cradle will rock
When the bough breaks, the cradle will fall
And down will come baby, cradle and all

Original clue: [Lullaby cradle perch].  Removing “cradle” makes it slightly harder, but not by much, given the well-known source.  Very reasonable

54. Fuming: IRATE.

59. Genre with hard-boiled characters: NOIR.   Many favorites for me in this category, and still discovering them on the old movie channels. Great books and graphic novels as well.
Original clue: [Moody film genre].  Removing the film reference makes the clue slightly harder, but quite gettable, especially given the frequency with which NOIR appears in crosswords.  Hey, maybe because the answer has four letters, the editor was trying to fool some solvers into inserting EGGS!

60. Greet the day: ARISE.
Original clue: [Greet the new day].  Terseness, terseness

61. Encumber, with "down": BOG.   Details are often the culprit. 

62. Letters replacing a list: ETC. 
Original clue: [List substitute]).  Equivalent, I’d say

64. Small amount of work: ERG.

Down:

1. Floral art: IKEBANA.  The  Japanese art of flower arrangement.

2. French-speaking African country: SENEGAL.

Original clue: [Neighbor of Mali]  Extra information provided -- sure, why not! Because we are geographically challenged and have no idea where MALI is. 

3. __ Domingo: SANTO.  The capital of the Dominican Republic.

I love how Tom presents parallel pictures.

4. Author: PEN.

5. Braz. neighbor: ARG.  Argentina.    Chile has the longest border with Aregentina.
Original clue: [Neighbor of Uru.]  No difference that I can see – I wonder why! More limited geography knowledge.

6. D.C. athlete: NAT.  The Washington Nationals

7. Small step: A TO B.
Original clue: [First stage of an ongoing pathway]   At the Crossword Corner, I often read comments like “Oh, that Wechsler is always creating tricky or difficult clues!”   Well, ultimately a puzzle’s degree of difficulty is often determined by the editor.  I was trying to make an unusual entry easier for the solver, but it was not meant to be

8. Louisiana Purchase negotiator who later became president: MONROE.
Original clue: [He helped negotiate the Louisiana Purchase]  Here the editorial makes things easier for the solver.  I think he was quite right to do so

9. Utterly enrapt with: ALL INTO.  

10. Castrated equine: GELDING.
Original clue: Donkey or mule, for example)  Well, well, well!  There I was, trying to craft a clue that danced around the obvious definition – maybe making a pun with “fix” – and the editor cuts to the chase, gets down to the nitty-gritty, and simply writes “castrated”.  I really thought that word was going to be a no-no, a victim of the so-called “breakfast test” for disturbing crossword content.  All I can say is – Bravo, editor!”

11. Send a short message: TWEET TO.
Original clue: [Direct a short message at]   Hmm…. Interesting.  Yes, I can see that “send”, without an added preposition, can imply the word “at” that concludes the answer.  That’s very subtle and somewhat more difficult, I think

14. Vague quantity: SOME.
Original clue: [Not very many].  Ironically, I think the word “vague” is, in this instance, more precise!

15. Torus-shaped food: BAGEL.  (Pictured with a schmear)
Original clue: [Edible torus].   Equivalent -- although I think my clue sounds funnier

16. Nation since 1948: ISRAEL. Me too!

17. Deal: COPE.
Original clue: [Deal (with)].  Another instance of the disappearing preposition.  I’ve noticed this reductivism especially in clues for Saturday LA Times puzzles, where one-word clues are common.   I suppose “deal” and “cope” are synonyms, but I feel that the “with” makes the equivalency more natural

21. Sci-fi classic set on an arid world: DUNE.

22. Gridiron maneuver: END RUN.

23. GPS datum: RTE.

27. Hush money payer: BRIBER.
Original clue: [One involved with dirty money].    Again, terseness

30. Cratchit kid: TIM.
Original clue: [Cratchit family member].   More precision = easier to solve

31. Salon supply: GEL.

34. Large word on a mall sign: SALE.
Original clue: Word written large on a mall sign).  Sure, why not

35. Involve: ENTAIL.

36. Compound with five carbon atoms: PENTANE.
Original clue: [C5H12].  I knew this one would be changed.  The publishing format for producing the puzzles probably cannot create chemical numerical subscripts in the clues, but I figured I’d give it a try

37. Parking in back: REAR LOT.
Original clue: [Parking for a street-front store, perhaps].   Short but sweet – good work, editor

38. Like a sleeping baby: ANGELIC. A bit grumpy Jeffrey.
Original clue: [Like an ideal child].   I think the new clue falls short because I don’t think a sleeping baby necessarily looks angelic by definition – I seem to recall several who did not

40. "Notorious" court initials: RBG.
Original clue: [Initialism that titles a 2018 biopic of a U.S. Justice]) Besides being way too long, my clue was wary of whether the majority of solvers knew the phrase “The Notorious RBG” in reference to Ruth Bader Ginsburg.  I’m glad the editor took this route

41. Franklin's wife: ELEANOR.
Original clue: [Franklin’s mate].  The editor was right to use the word “wife”.  After all, this is a tricky clue: I assume that most solvers will first consider Franklin to be the last name and might wonder: “So that rat Wechsler expects us to know the name of Benjamin Franklin’s mate?!”  And “wife” will at least deter people from considering Aretha Franklin as the subject

42. Financial planning target: NEST EGG.

43. Teen gossip fodder: DATES.

45. It's inevitable: FATE.

46. Without a key: ATONAL. This was not a lock for me.
Original clue: [Like music without a key].  Terseness that makes things a bit tougher

49. Very, in Vienna: SEHR.
Original clue: [Essex : “Excellent! :: Essen : ___ gut!”).   I thought the phrase “sehr gut” might help solvers recall the German word

51. Erie or Huron, but not Superior: TRIBE.  I like this clue.

53. Ritual heap: PYRE. Musical interlude.

Original clue: [Hindu ritual structure]).   Ritual heap?  Well, maybe so, but that does seem a bit indelicate.

56. 2008 bailout co.: AIG.
Original clue: [Global NYC-based insurance and finance corp.]).  By this point, we can all say the magic word together – terseness!

57. Ames sch.: ISU.   Originally in 1870 as the "Iowa Agricultural College and Model Farm"
Original clue: [Sch. With an Ames campus]).  Remember, everyone!  Ters…  oh, enough already! Perhaps easy for the midwestern solvers, but does everyone know the Iowa State Cyclones are from Ames?

58. House fig.: REP.

The great tribute and experiment have come to an end, and I applaud each of you who stuck with this until it was finished. It may cut into your Jumble or KenKen solving, but hopefully, you now know some more and all will comment more and provide more insight. I hope this pleases the regulars and brings more of the quiet ones to join the ways.