, pub-2774194725043577, DIRECT, f08c47fec0942fa0 L.A.Times Crossword Corner: Sunday December 5, 2021 Jill Singer


Dec 5, 2021

Sunday December 5, 2021 Jill Singer

Theme: "Sounds of the Sea"-  Word in each theme entry is replaced by a soundalike sea creature.

23. Commander of primitive fish?: STURGEON GENERAL. Surgeon general.

35. Festival for dugong relatives?: MANATEE FAIR. Vanity Fair.

49. Tiny crustacean herald?: KRILL THE MESSENGER. Kill the messenger.

67. Help for little fish?: HERRING AIDS. Hearing aids.

82. Reason to go to a seafood restaurant?: JUST FOR THE HALIBUT. Just for the hell of it.

94. Crustacean seller?: PRAWN BROKER. Pawnbroker.

115. Marine mammal in the air?: A HIGHER PORPOISE. A higher purpose.

No Jill Singer in our blog label. Must be a debut. Congratulations, Jill!

I mentioned before that I often struggled with this type of theme. Somehow I just could not see Vanity Fair. Had to send an SOS to D-Otto. 

Some of you might remember this puzzle we had a few years ago. That one had a tight set.


1. The Phillie Phanatic and Bernie Brewer: MASCOTS. Gimme! Here's Bernie Brewer.

8. Like some goods: DAMAGED.

15. Minimal: LEAST.

20. How big dogs may travel: IN CARGO.

21. Berry, for one: ACTRESS. Halle Berry.

22. Not warranted: UNDUE.

25. Goes (through) carefully: COMBS.

26. Ginseng and rooibos: HERBAL TEAS. Never had ginseng tea. But ginseng chicken is a very popular Korean dish. The deep red thing is date. Koreans and Cantonese like to put dates in soup.

27. Early hrs.: AMS.

28. Muslim judge: HAKIM. New to me.

29. NFL commentator Michael: IRVIN.

30. Leave out: OMIT.

32. Longings: DESIRES.

34. Open-__ shoes: TOED.

40. Rage: IRE.

41. Disney's "__ and the Detectives": EMIL. Learning moment for me.

43. Tons: SLEWS.

44. Burn lightly: SINGE.

46. Went for the worm: BIT.

54. Lose it: ERUPT.

56. Blood system letters: ABO.

57. Informal clothes: CASUALS.

58. Former Yugoslav leader: TITO. Josip Broz Tito.  Somehow he's very famous in China. His Chinese name is 铁托, sounds very steely.

59. Key next to D: C SHARP.

62. Unsurpassed: ALL TIME.

66. Italian wine region: ASTI.

71. Words with a hand up, maybe: I CAN.

72. Magician who is a two-time "America's Got Talent" winner: SHIN LIM. New to me also. Wikipedia said that his parents were born in Singapore. This reminds me of constructor Julian Lim. The Lim is the same as Chinese Lin, meaning "forest".

74. Natural light refractor: CORNEA.

75. Eco-friendly certification letters: LEED. Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design.

76. Most stylish: TONIEST.

80. Pirate's cry: YAR. ARR too.

81. Jumping, as a joint: ALIVE.

88. Danson of TV: TED.

89. Disney's vision of tomorrow: EPCOT.

90. Make up (for): ATONE.

91. Pre-storm state: CALM.

93. Warrior prefix: ECO.

98. "Terrible" czar: IVAN. Ivan the Terrible.  First Russian to be called "czar".

102. Status car: PORSCHE.

105. Contrary to popular belief, throwing it won't endanger birds: RICE.

106. Architect Jones: INIGO. Learned from doing crosswords.

107. Dispensed, with "out": METED.

108. Bout decision: TKO.

111. Amazing: PHENOMENAL. Great fill.

114. Actor Quinn: AIDAN.

117. Silly joke response, perhaps: SNORT.

118. Symbol of love: RED ROSE.

119. Without value: USELESS.

120. Baden-Powell who co-founded the Girl Guide movement: AGNES. Maybe Irish Miss knows more about more her.

121. Marginal moves: INDENTS.

122. 2002 Soderbergh sci-fi film: SOLARIS. Starring George Clooney.


1. Tennis error: MIS-HIT.

2. Opposite of retro-: ANTERO- Google shows it's "from the Latin anterior meaning before".

3. Reduced-speed road sign symbol: S CURVE. Also 51. Angle iron: L BAR.

4. Union __, Dow Chemical subdivision: CARBIDE. They have a big factory in Guangzhou.

5. Skin, e.g.: ORGAN.

6. Shampoo brand: T GEL. Anti-dandruff .

7. What sweeps sweep: SOOT.

8. Discoverer of the first ocean route to India: DA GAMA.

9. Nails the final: ACES IT. Also 63. Suggestion for a sprain: ICE IT.

10. High pt.: MTN.

11. Neighborhood: AREA.

12. Origin: GERM.

13. Those, to José: ESAS.

14. Connection letters: DSL.

15. Vader creator: LUCAS (George). Darth Vader.

16. Sukiyaki ingredient: ENOKI. I often put them in my miso soup. So good.

17. Looking up to: ADMIRING.

18. Sink: SUBMERGE.

19. QBs' targets: TES. Tight ends.

24. "And the people bowed and prayed / To the __ god they made": Paul Simon, "The Sound of Silence": NEON.

28. Nautical pronoun: HER. Thought of Spitzboov! Hope he can tough this one out and get back home soon.

31. New Age musician John: TESH.

32. Talk out of, with "from": DISSUADE.

33. One reading signs: SEER.

35. Peace, in Russian: MIR.

36. Boxer Laila: ALI.

37. Power source: Abbr.: ELEC.

38. Disaster response gp.: FEMA.

39. Stupefies: AWES.

42. NYSE, e.g.: MKT. Followed by 44. React to falling prices, perhaps: SELL.

45. Gradually impart: INSTILL.

46. Almost-ready products: BETAS.

47. Word with whiskey or wolfhound: IRISH. And "Miss".

48. Solo's opposite, in music: TUTTI.

50. Comic actor Bert: LAHR. Known for his Cowardly Lion role in "The Wizard of Oz".

52. Amos at the piano: TORI.

53. Chips partner: SALSA.

55. Indicate: POINT TO.

59. Twill fabric: CHINO.

60. Degree of uncommonness, in some games: SEMI-RARE.

61. Pittsburgh's __ Park: PNC.

64. Author Binchy: MAEVE.  Irish novelist.

65. Stopped: ENDED.

68. Many a Prado painting: GOYA.

69. Name near Uzbekistan, on maps: ARAL.

70. Crucifix letters: INRI. Iesus Nazarenus, Rex Iudaeorum (Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews).

73. It's often an attic: LOFT.

77. Jazzy James: ETTA.

78. Demonstrate: SHOW.

79. Besides Mo., the only state that borders eight others: TENN.

81. NHL Flames' home: ATL.

82. Off-road vehicle: JEEP.

83. Yet to happen: UPCOMING.

84. Got a goal against: SCORED ON.

85. Lang. of about 200,000 Americans: HEBR. Hebrew.

86. Letters in old dates: BCE.

87. Old Mideast org.: UAR.

92. Seat of New York's Nassau County: MINEOLA. Unknown to me. Wikipedia says Lenny Bruce was born here.

94. Prof.'s degree: PHD.

95. Most developed: RIPEST.

96. Earth tones: OCHRES.

97. Hang on to: KEEP.

99. More jungly: VINIER. Both words trigger spell check red line.

100. 1999 ATP Player of the Year: AGASSI (Andre).

101. To boot: NO LESS.

103. Look parents caution children about: STARE.

104. __ on the dollar: CENTS.

106. Urge forward: IMPEL.

108. "If so ... ": THEN.

109. 17th-century privateer: KIDD. Captain Kidd.

110. Folklore fiend: OGRE.

112. Toi et moi: NOUS.

113. Roughly: OR SO.

114. Simile words: AS A.

115. NFC West team: ARI. Arizona Cardinals.

116. Term of endearment: HON.



OwenKL said...

DNF. Two blank cells when I cried uncle, red letters showed 6 more wrong, scattered, 3 just misspellings.
West: BId + dUTTo + SHoNL_M + _H_NO + _-SHARP.
East: MAuVE + LEuD.
BIT I don't understand.
TUTTI & C-SHARP show my ignorance of music.
CHINO shows my ignorance of tailoring.
SHINLIM, MAEVE, LEED, plain naticks.

The theme was amusing. I didn't even look at the title until after I was finished, but it would have been no help anyway.

TED suffered from insomnia.
Doc diagnosed sleep apnea.
Said his eyes spoke
All in dad jokes,
Because his humor was all CORNEA!

Herbert was an such an awful tease,
His gibes could bring kids to their knees!
But as he grew,
Great CALM he knew,
And sold it to others with his HERB-AL TEAS!

{B+, A-.}

desper-otto said...

Good morning!

VINIER? Really? Absolutely nothing else would fit there? But it was the opposite corner, the great northwest, that almost ended d-o's quest. Figured a "big dog" would travel IN A LIMO, didn't know Michael IRVIN nor the shampoo T/GEL. S-CURVE finally broke things open, avoiding the dreaded DNF. [Sound of patting oneself on the back goes here.] Shouldn't 'INRI be followed by 'IGGINS? It was only after coming here that I learned it should've been PHENOMENAL and MINEOLA, not an I. So it was a DNF after all. [Sigh] Nice debut, Jill. Thanx for the tour, C.C.

Linkster said...

Quite a slog but FIR.

We hope to see more of you, Jill. C.C. was stumped and she is the master of construction and crossword lore. She could "teach you the ropes" if you would care to hang out here.

On my first pass through, from NE to SW, the grid was only spotted. I concentrated in the southern region and worked north. Once I BIT on PRAWN BROKER the design strategy surfaced and I could see the beauty of the challenge.

A great diversion of a Sunday morning - now on to holiday chores...

Irish Miss said...

Good Morning:

As I have mentioned often, I’m ambivalent about Sunday puzzles, the majority of which I solve but without any enjoyment. I’m happy to say this morning’s solve was quite enjoyable, notwithstanding Vinier and the fingernails-on-the-blackboard misfit, Manatee Fair. I, like CC, needed an interpretation and, IMO, it just doesn’t work. However, the other themers originality and playfulness redeem these miscues. My favorite was Just For the Halibut. The proper noun unknowns were scarce this morning, which I appreciated: Hakim, Inigo, and T-Gel. My w/os included Doled/Meted, Arg/Yar, and Scads/Slews. Alas, though, I had a FIW due to the Tutto and Shon Lim crossing. I never heard of Shin Lim, but I should have known Tutti was the correct fill. Anyway, my disappointment was assuaged by not one, but two CSOs at Agnes and Irish. MalMan got his 15 minutes of fame with Manatee Fair and Lucina got a nod at Esas.

Thanks, Jill, for an enjoyable and satisfying experience and congrats on your debut and thanks, CC, for the insider’s view expressed in your critique and commentary. I was pleased to see that I wasn’t alone in not understanding the Vanity Fair translation. I know nothing about Agnes Baden-Powell or the Girl Guides. In fact, I never heard of her.

Hope to hear some encouraging news about Spitz soon.


Picard, thanks for posting the beautiful photos of the Sydney Opera House.

Have a great day.

ATLGranny said...

FIW today with two bad squares, but a good experience anyway. Thanks, Jill, for your entertaining debut. The first themer was one of my problems: SpURGEON GENERAL. My other bad square was in PHENOMiNAL, like DO. I too spent time figuring out IN CARGO as well as RED ROSE, although I did eventually get those right. PAWN BROKER led to getting HEBR, a learning moment for me.

C.C. gets my thanks for explaining still puzzling fill I had gotten, but didn't understand. Of course the NHL Flames' home ATL was familiar to me!

Hope you all have a relaxing Sunday, maybe listening to sounds of the sea, if possible?

CrossEyedDave said...

I tried to post yesterday from my iPhone
To respond to vigorous banter about Woodstock
And I hit enter, and my post went into the ether...

Take any and all of my technological advice
With a grain of salt...

jfromvt said...

Minor nit - the Flames are in CALgary, not ATLanta. To me that’s an editing issue, not the constructor. But overall, a fun, typical Sunday, with a theme that was easy to figure out.

Subgenius said...

I only had one FIW (what does that stand for, anyway?) I had "Mauve" instead of "Mauve" and didn't know the acronym "leed.

Subgenius said...

On the whole, a very enjoyable puzzle!

billocohoes said...

Unknown, FIW = Finished It Wrong

I thought it was caLgary, they moved from ATL forty-one years ago.

Don't quite get the clue for SEMIRARE

SHIN LIM was unknown, among some other names

Jinx in Norfolk said...

Cheated for MINEOLA, and still got aRR and SOLAReS wrong. None of them evoked a dope slap. To be consistent, Jill could have clued MIL for "home of the Braves". (ATL once had the NHL Flames; Milwaukee once had the MLB Braves).

I remember Michael Irving as a star receiver the last era when the Cowboys had great teams.

I don't like IRISH whiskey, but I LOVE IRISH wolfhounds and have parented five of the magnificent beasts. The last one was taller than Michael IRVING when he stood on his hind legs and stuck his nose straight up. (Michael is 6'2", Merlin was 6'10".) People give me a funny look when I tell them I switched to greyhounds because I got too old for big dogs.

When I lived in LA, a friend's wife was a bartender in a swank downtown hotel. One move the guys did to try to impress her was to flaunt their branded key fobs on the bar. She asked one particularly obnoxious cad if he knew the difference between his PORSCHE and a porcupine. Nope. She told him "With a porcupine, the pricks are on the outside."

Is anyone else having trouble with Blogspot loading very slowly?

PK said...

Congratulations, Jill Singer, on producing the Sunday puzzle which took me longer to solve (73 minutes) than any other I remember doing. I almost quit halfway thru with only five fills. However, I did enjoy the punny theme. Something fishy about it.

C.C. great expo. Wonder why TITO was so popular in China.

T-GEL has an anti-itch type which I used to use full-body when I had so much trouble with itch mites from the trees in my yard. My daughter came once with some kind of red welts all over her. I had her bathe with T-GEL and it gave her relief.

Picard said...

I find this type of theme a challenge, but this was amusing. Slow going with clusters like these: SOLARIS. MINNEOLA, AGASSI and CSHARP, SHIN LIM, CHINO. Surprised to FIR.

Here is my playlist of short videos of an ORGAN concert we attended last weekend at the Palace of the Legion of Honor in San Francisco.

The ORGANist is Jonathan Dimmock who apparently is world renowned. The thing that I could not figure out is where the sound was coming from. There were no visible holes in this marble building where the pipes might be. I asked Mr Dimmock and he explained: The upper "marble" stones are actually fabric!

Here Tom Lehrer sings about how the HALIBUTs and the STURGEONs are being wiped out by detergents in his song "Pollution".

That line comes at 30 seconds into this song. Has anyone else heard this song?

Picard said...

Jinx Thank you for the amusing PORSCHE vs porcupine joke. I have heard it before and I think it was BMW in the version I heard.

From Yesterday and Today:
Wilbur Charles, AnonT, Bill Seeley, Misty, Yellowrocks, Irish Miss Thank you for the kind words about my SYDNEY OPERA HOUSE photos. Definitely worth doing the tour if you are there, to see the interior and learn the improbable history of its creation.

Wilbur Charles Way cool that you rode that ferry past the SYDNEY OPERA HOUSE. Please do tell your story! Yes, I do try to keep up with popular culture. Having a younger wife helps as do these puzzles.

Husker Gary said...

-SHOCK! With late newspaper again I had to solve online and when LE_D/MA_VE and MI_EOLA/I_IGO proved right I was glad I was already seated.
-I thought we had a simple letter replacement with STURGEON GENERAL but the puns were fun too.
-My MIL used to SINGE pin feathers after killing a chicken and plucking big feathers
-I knew SHIN LIM from Penn And Teller's Fool Us show
-I am uneasy about having a laser reshape my CORNEA to get rid of glasses
-Some ECO Warriors want to end this 60-yr-old Husker tradition
-DA GAMA sailed five years later and actually found what Columbus thought he had found
-DA GAMA and the Indians both spoke Arabic which was the language of maritime interaction
-This NASA guy knew of the MIR space station
-MINEOLA, Iowa (pop. 154) is an hour east of here
-When does "hang on to" become "hoarding"?

Jinx in Norfolk said...

Picard, I think my friend's wife liked the alliteration of PORSCHE and porcupine. No surprise that it wasn't original - she was funny, (usually) sweet and beautiful, but not exactly the sharpest zester behind the bar.

On another occasion my friend sent her flowers at her job, and called her to make sure they arrived. Afterward a few of her regulars trickled in, and she asked each one if HE sent the flowers. She reported that each one said they had, and each one asked her if she liked them. She assured each one that she thought it must have been him, and that they were perfect. She brought home extra tips that shift. (She would eventually divorce my friend, not for one of her rich customers but for her bar's manager.)

Vidwan827 said...

Thank you Madam Jill Singer, for a very interesting and challenging Sunday puzzle ... and if this is your debut, then also, Hearty Congratulations !
Thank you CC for a very nice explanatory review.

I knew something was afoot when I got STURGEON GENERAL, but the entire concept eluded me till the end. There were many names I did not know, but they were parsed eventually.
I saw the CSO for MalMan early.
I knew about the Philly Phanatic, since I have family in Cherry Hill NJ, just across from Philly.
I've had Rooibos ( Red Bush ) herbal tea ... it has no caffiene, thus is, supposedly, healthier than black tea. Although IMHO, black tea chai tastes much better.

Re: Vasco De Gama, ... despite his success in finding India and the consequent lucrative spice trade, ... like Columbus and the thousands of spainards, that followed him, ..... De Gama's visits eventually, led to the Portugese in colonising India, for the next 400 years. However, they did not have much success moving into the hinterland, but remained only on the shores.

Thank you Picard, for the recordings of the organ recitals, and Tom Lehrer, who was a true genius, both with his words and lyrics ... and his piano playing. I do listen to his Elements, song, often, and I sincerely, hope to be able to cram it, learn it by rote, and even sing it someday ....

Have a nice Sunday, and a good week ahead, you all.

waseeley said...

Thank you Jill and congrats for a Sunday toughie, but my first FIR in a couple of days. I found this an excellent puzzle with a lot of diverse fill and not too much crosswordese. Loved the theme as I'm a Chesapeake region seafood lover. In fact Teri and I stopped by the MKT after Mass and bought a pound of COD for dinner.

And thank you C.C. (our favorite Girl Guide!) for the recap.

35A MANATEE FAIR. Our MANATEE is better than FAIR, he's EXCELLENT! He even makes me SNORT sometimes. 😁

41A EMIL. DNK EMIL, in fact he was the last to fill.

58A TITO. Wasn't he one of the Jackson Five?

106A INIGO. I think I learned about him on the Corner too. Looking at some of his designs, makes me think that he got the gig for Downton Abbey.

114 AIDAN. Filling "E" for "A" held me up for a long time in the SW.

120A AGNES. Hi IM! DNK that Lord Baden-Powell, the founder of the Boy Scouts had a sister. I've heard of "Girl Guides", but didn't know who founded the org.

121A INDENTS. Got this on perps, but thought it had something to do with LOCOMOTION.

4D CARBIDE. Union Carbide is notorious for the BHOPAL disaster in BHOPAL India.

19D TES. Or TON TA TES, plural of "YOU" personal, en Français.

24D NEON. My favorite as will become apparent soon.

35D MIR. The Russian space station from 1986 to 2001.


Husker @12:59 PM Don't worry about the surgery HG. I'm sure it will be guided by a computer. What could possibly go wrong? Only kidding. Definitely make sure it's NOT being guided by a computer.

Picard @12:33 PM Thanks for the organ concert (great riff on 5D BTW). I listened to and loved all all three pieces. I'm an Aaron Copeland fan (what's not to like?), but have never heard these works performed on an organ.

Jayce said...

I liked this puzzle, most of it anyway, and got many chuckles from the fishy answers. The only one that flummoxed me for a while was HERRING AIDS, which I had as SARDINE AIDS for a long time even though it didn't make sense. I laughed out loud when I fixed that mistake.

Hand up for filling MINIOLA and PHENOMINAL and wondering why the clock didn't stop. Then, after I fixed that, the clock still didn't stop. I had to do a "Check Grid" to find that errant E in AIDEN and STERE.

Hand up again for not knowing either SHIN LIM or SEMI RARE (sounds like a steak order) but the crossing M seemed like the most likely letter.

I quote desper-otto: VINIER? Really?

Speaking of steak, our son is in San Francisco for Semicon and we met for dinner at a restaurant in Palo Alto (sorta halfway between San Jose and SF) last night. He ordered steak, which looked good but was really bad. The meat was mealy and tasteless and could not be saved by the sauce that bathed it. I know it is damn near impossible to find decent beef these days and I guess they couldn't either.

TITO sounds "steely" in Chinese because the first character of his name, 铁, means "iron". The second character of his name, 托, can mean, roughly, to hold in the palm of one's hand. He did indeed rule Yugoslavia with an iron grip!

Good wishes to you all.

Vidwan827 said...

Without getting into politics, or contrarian opinions ....

Waseely, Re:; Union Carbide, and the Bhopal Disaster/Catastrophe...

I was a chemical engineer, in my past life, and I have read extensively on this occurrence. Also having lived in India for 25 yrs, I think I know the people and the society, etc.,
I truly believe that :::

a) This was a very unusual chemical reaction,- which required huge amts of water, a chemical which is not used in the process itself. This whole fact was never fully explained or investigated. I strongly believe that that act was a deliberate act of sabotage, by the local chemical worker's union - who did not relize the extent of the catastrophe, it would cause ... There was a strike on, and the union thought they could somehow strongarm the management into submission. That union, like many others, in India and elsewhere, was controlled by powerful politicians, who were successful in supressing any further investigations from uncovering the truth.

b) The presence of thousands of hutments, and poor people living in the immediate vicinity, was due to the careless attitude of the local city and state govt., that allowed that area to be populated and habitated, in the first place. Those were most of the casualties.

c). What helped UnCarbide, was that all the upper management on the scene, and elsewhere in India, were indians. ... so that the americans in Conn. had no reason to be blamed whatsoever
Also, the Central ( Federal ) Indian Govt. then in power, also realized that there was nothing to be gained in blaming an innocent foreign corp., so the amt of compensation, was settled at exactly the amt of insurance that the Union Carbide was carrying. Despite the horrific tragedy of life and other casualties. There were criminal charges brought against some 7 of the Union Carbide officers, but nobody really ever went to jail...
It is, as the govt and the courts knew what was the real state of affairs...

BTW, I worked for Union Carbide, but in MUmbai, 500 miles away, and ~15 years before the disaster, in a polystyrene plant. I know it to be a very prestigious and excellent firm.

My 2 bits. Forgive me for the TMI.

waseeley said...

Vidwan @ 7:13 PM Thanks for your insider's account Vidwan. It was very helpful. Things are rarely as simple as they seem. My recollections are all third hand from a long time ago and based on associations in my simple memory map: "4D = Union CARBIDE = BHOPAL". My preferred historiography is that a report from a single man on the scene is worth far more than that of 10 "objective reporters" relaying gossip from what else but, multiple "men on the scene".

chuck rowniak said...

the flames havent been in atlanta for a long time since cal for calgary did not work I assume this was just a silly error

Anonymous T said...

Sunday Lurk say...

{A, B+}

I knew of Shin Lim from Fool Us. Click if you like card-magic.

Enjoyed reading y'all today; thanks for letting me lurk.

Cheers, -T

Wilbur Charles said...

Didn't take long to see that SlURVE was wrong. CARGO, Duh. Long ride from Dunnellon started about 9 EST

I had TUTTe. SHeNLIN sounded good , I didn't think of two names

Jfromvt, nice catch. They moved several years ago methinks. 41 years ago???

Picard etal, the stewardess on my flight from Saigon was a classmate. "What are you doing here?" She exclaimed. Duh, fighting a war. She and her friend doubled on the Ferry trip with a fellow Marine.

Fairly challenging today.


Michael said...

Dear -T: Thank you very much for the Shim Lin video ... amazing, just amazing. Now I'm going to apply some medical ethanol -- just for "medicinal purposes" of course -- to soothe the chin pain from it hitting the floor so much.

Jill S said...

It was really fun to read about everyone's solving experience! I'll share my inspiraton for this puzzle. My husband was traveling in Minnesota and went fishing with a client. He woke me at 11pm to tell me about the sturgeon he had caught. In a sleepy stupor, I replied "was it a sturgeon general?" Beware of puns made in your sleep, they could lead to ridiculous crossword puzzles!

Anonymous said...

81 down. Flames left ATL decades ago.

Unknown said...

Had o FUN Sunday trimming the tree and decorating the house. Dug this puzzle out of the recycle bin on Monday. BAD MOVE. Finally tossed it ...into the trash. ( wouldn't honor it by recycling it). Where do these constructors dig up these arcane and obscure defs??? Thanks for destroying my Holiday Cheer, Jill!