Sep 1, 2008

Monday September 1, 2008 Michael T. Williams


18A: Elvis's Musical ultimatum: NOW OR NEVER

27A: Frustrated athlete's ultimatum: PLAY ME OR TRADE ME

49A: Seller's ultimatum: TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT

64A: Hide-and-seek player's ultimatum: READY OR NOT

Shouldn't the clue for 18A be Elvis' instead of Elvis's?

Both "More or less" and "Sooner or later" are antonym phrases too, but I don't think they carry an "OR ELSE" tone. How about "To be or not to be"? Would you consider it a possible ultimatum?

Because of various OR's in the grid, I would prefer LOWE (7D: Rob or Chad) to be clued simply as "Actor Rob", and DALE (41D: Carnegie or Murphy) simply as "Catcher Murphy". No need to provide 2 names for the answer, one is sufficient.

Lots of proper names in this puzzle, most easily obtainable though. I did have trouble in the lower middle corner. I guessed ESTELLAS instead of ESTELLES for 55A: Getty and Winwood, so my 51D became OBARON, which sounded pretty good to me.


5A: Muslim faith: ISLAM. Literally "submission" in Arabic. "Muslim" (one who surrenders) has the same root word 'aslama (to surrender), according to the dictionary.

14A: Vault: LEAP. My first thought was SAFE.

15A: Wynonna's mom: NAOMI. They really look like sisters, don't they? I like Ashley Judd in "Double Jeopardy".

16A: Skater Lipinksi: TARA. Awesome! I like the music she picked.

20A: Marina skyline: MASTS. If MASTS refer to those vertical spars, then what do you call those horizontal poles?

22A: Old World: EUROPEAN. Really? Not EUROPE?

26A: 11: NOV.: I don't like this clue. I would prefer "Election mo."

36A: Poet Teasdale: SARA. I got it from the down clues. What poem is she famous for?

71A: Kyle's friend on "South Park": STAN. "Oh my God, they killed Kenny!"


1D: Bronco's kicker Jason: ELAM. This is what Dennis said last time: "Jason ELAM is tied for the longest field goal (63 yds.), and has Super Bowls and Pro Bowls under his belt. One of the better kickers." But I forgot, would not have got it without the across fills. I seem to only remember things I should not have been taught.

2D: Composer Bartok: BELA. I hope you enjoy this "Sonata for Solo Violin" clip. So good.

3D: Quartet member: BASS. Does this refer to vocal quartet?

927D: Whitneys partner: PRATT. Great logo.

28D: Gospels' source material: LOGIA. Plural of Logion. New to me. Was it a gimme to you?

29D: Wild way to run?: AMUCK. I still think there should be a "var." mark with the clue. What's your opinion?

33D: ___ Gras: MARDI. Let's keep our fingers crossed for Chris, Sandra and all those whose are affected by Gustav.

34D: German artist Max: ERNST. I am so tired of Dadaism. Remember René Magritte (surrealist)'s "This Is Not a Pipe"?

42D: Pipe part: STEM. Or "Flower holder". Do you love red, red rose?

51D: Titania's mate: OBERON. Vaguely remember "A Midsummer Night's Dream" story, but could not remember his name. WP says OBERON is also a "moon of Uranus".

61D: Puccini piece: ARIA. Very fascinating Maria Callas clip. Ari Onassis probably should have married her instead of Jackie. Is anyone here an opera fan?

65D: Last of pay?: OLA. Payola. I just learned earlier that OLA is also Spanish for "wave". How do you say "make waves" in Spanish? And what will be the Spanish title for this songtrack?



lois said...

Good morning CC & DF's: Guess everyone is sleeping in. Easy puzzle today, not Dennis time though. Had Eric instead of Stan and think TD's ought to say abbr. Was looking for a noun for 22A but all the perps took care of my off track thinking. Forgot that amok is also amuck. Good puzzle for a Monday holiday though.

I am an opera fan and could listen to Callas all day. A Bartok fan I am not. Thanks for all the links, CC.

Off to go 4-wheelin' and motor cyclin'. 73A & 64A reminded me of what comes tomorrow. Gotta polish my suit of armor tonight.

Enjoy this gorgeous day. Hope those dealing w/Gustav are ok.

Argyle said...

Good Morning, c.c. and others,

An ultimatum is usual issued to a second party so "to be or not to be" wouldn't be. How about:

move it or lose it

click it or ticket

NYTAnonimo said...

I think you're right about Elvis cc. Old Europe rather than European sounded fine to me. Did not know logia either but pieced it together from the rest. Finished in good time but struggled most with the northwest.
Enjoy the holiday!

flyingears said...

“Nothing is impossible. Some things are just less likely than others.”
“I couldn't wait for success, so I went ahead without it.”
- Jonathan Winters quotes

Another good name for theme: "ULTIMATA" to make the odd-sounding word...

Easy puzzle. Agree with C.C. on choice for 22A clue. Answer should be Europe.

Got caught with 9D as "MIRAGE", but the perps helped...

Elvis' song was "It's Now or Never" and NOT "Now or Never"...

"LOGIA", I believe, comes from the Greek word
"LOGOS", which means "THE WORD" , "THE VERB" in this case as the Word "λóγοs" is used as "The Verb", as used in John 1:1. Generally, in the Greek etymology, the words used goes back to the first few letters of THAT word used... "LOG..." I may be wrong, but it's the closest from the "KOINE" Greek I learned, which was the language spoken in the early century.

Jeanne said...

Morning all,
Nice puzzle today. Still haven't recovered from Saturday's puzzle fiasco. I thought I was getting so much better at puzzles and then Saturday threw me for a loop.

The possessive spelling of Elvis's musical ultimatum is correct. However, some of the newer rules do eliminate the extra apostrophe and s if you don't actually pronounce the possessive part. For example if you say Lloyd Bridges' house, Bridges and the possessive form Bridges' isn't pronounced differently.

Hope everyone has a wonderful Labor Day. We have to perform some labor today and close our pool. Really hate that job.

Barry G. said...

Morning, folks!

Easy Monday puzzle with a few minor speedbumpos that didn't really affect the outcome. I got 18A entirely via the perps and stared at NOWORNNEVER for awhile thinking it was NO WORN EVER and wondering whether it was an anagram, a pun or what. It wasn't until I got another theme answer that I realized what the theme actually was and was able to parse this answer correctly.

I think I knew who Jason ELAM was at one point, but I couldn't remember it this time. Got it easily via the perps, however.

I got LOGIA via the perps as well and it seems familiar to me, but I don't think I've ever seen it before. I know that "logos" is Greek for "word" and that it's the word used in the scriptural phrase, "And the Word was made flesh." So it makes sense to me, but I still don't think I've ever actually seen it before.

"11" is a crappy clue for NOV, and AMUCK is just plain wrong. Bad, editor! Bad!

Oh -- and ESTELLE was a complete gimme for me, since my wife used to be a huge fan of the TV show "The Golden Girls" starring ESTELLE Getty and I was forced to watch the show repeatedly when we were first married. She wanted to watch that and I wanted to watch "Stargate: SG1". Now we compromise and watch "Law & Order" reruns together...

Dennis said...

Good morning, c.c. and gang - super-fast this morning, nary a hitch, which is remarkable given 4 hours' sleep.

c.c., Dale Murphy was only a catcher for a few games when he first came up; from '80 to '93, he was an outfielder/first baseman.
Also, my understanding is that vertical round poles are called masts, horizontal ones booms, and that they're all spars. I'm sure the sirens have other names for vertical and horizontal poles.

I hope everyone's had an outstanding holiday weekend so far, and that our friends in the path of Gustav are safe and secure. You're certainly in all our thoughts and prayers.

Boomer said...

Puzzle must be too easy for you experts. Even a doofus like me got the whole pie. Although my first thought of the "Gladden" clue was DANNY, I settled for ELATE. I hope you all have a pleasant holiday, and to those in the gulf coast, I hope your homes stay safe, and you can return to normal lives. You have suffered enough.

xchefwalt said...

Good morning c.c., DF’s and all! A very non-laborious puzzle for a labor day. I had no problem with 22d, and only got hung up in the west, 27 & 28 d and 38 a, although I’ve seen that clued before and should have remembered it.

Thanks Dennis for the Dale Murphy information. I remember him as a Mets killer, hated his guts, but no one played with more class and consistency than him. The HOF is empty without him in it.

No green bean and French fries today (at least on the road). Today I’ll be practicing my 8 ounce flips and my 12 ounce curls. Be happy and well y’all.

Dr. Dad said...

Good morning, C.C. & fellow DF's.
Yes, C.C. - I think it should be Elvis' ultimatum.
The horizontal poles (spars)on a mast are called yards and the outermost tips are called yardarms.
I think there should have been an indication of an abbreviation for "Nov." I kept thinking about Roman numerals.
Don't forget - after they kill Kenny --- "Those Bastards!!!!"
C.C. has been having a fascination and showing us pictures of "long things" lately (today it's a rose).

Interesting that "ola" is Spanish for wave and 11D is "wave."

Snooze or lose.

Old World style would be a European style, e.g., so I think the clue and answer are okay.

Today is, of course, labor day. It is also Emma M. Nutt Day (the first woman telephone operator).

Have a good one!

Dennis said...

walt, Murphy was a Phillies-killer as well, and you're right, a true class act. The Hall needs him.

drdad, I believe it's "you snooze, you lose".

C.C. Burnikel said...

"could listen to Callas all day." Do you speak Italian then?

Wow, "logic" has the same root word as "Logia". Good success quote. "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!"

Thanks for the possessive spelling explanation.

"And the Word was made flesh." What does it mean? Where did this line come from? AMUCK is a legit word.

Is the theme title "Likely Sounds" on your Sunday puzzle? Please always let me have your Sunday theme answers/titles from now on. I am very curious about those stuff. Thank you for the "ultimatum" second party explanation. I did not realize that. "Move it or Lose it" and "click it or ticket" are not good because they are not antonyms.

Dr. Dad said...

Dennis, I know. I was changing it so it would fit the ultimatum theme.

C.C. Burnikel said...

"Today I’ll be practicing my 8 ounce flips and my 12 ounce curls". What does it mean?

Dr. Dad,
OLA is WAVE only when WAVE is noun, as in ocean wave. You shot a hole-in-one with your rose STEM comment.

Oh I was wrong. I seem to remember that he was a catcher on his Topps rookie card. What is the meaning of "you snooze, you lose"? By the way, Argyle's comments earlier reminded me of your MOREL philosophy "Use it or lose it". I forgot to tell you how impressed I was by your "Sharing is caring" MOREL principal. You are such a MOREL guy, so generous and so hard to find. STEM should be clued as "Mushroom part" for you. No, I took it back, it should be clued as "MOREL support" for Dennis.

Ken said...

Good morning, C.C., et al. This was a fast mover this morning. I worked from NW to SE, then SW and finally finished in the NE corner. "11" is an inane clue and amuck certainly needed (var.)
In 1998, Jason ELAM tied Tom Dempsey's field goal record of 63 yards at Denver's Mile Hile Stadium. Tom Dempsey's story is incredible. He was born without all or part of his right foot, but used a wooden prosthetic device. Tom set the record in 1970, I remember the film clips shown later.
Both players gave full credit to the centers who snapped and their holders. Nice to read about someone who isn't about his or her own ego.
I wish a restful Labor Day to all.

Barry G. said...

"And the Word was made flesh." What does it mean? Where did this line come from?

Well, I see that flyingears previously gave the citation for this quote from the Bible as John, Chapter 1. The bit I quoted came from John 1:14. In full, here's the relevant verses:

1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2. The same was in the beginning with God.

3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

6. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

8. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

9. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

10. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11. He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13. Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

As to what it all means, well, that's a whole discussion in and of itself. One way to look at it, I suppose, is that Jesus, being the Son of God, was the living embodiment of God's word (purpose, will, etc.). Of course, there are many other interpretations a well.

AMUCK is a legit word.

Hmmmm... it is? Let's see.... Well, what do you know? According to my dictionary, AMUCK is the original version and AMOK is the variant. I had no idea. Live and learn....

Ken said...

I bow my humble head over my "amuck" comment. I should have checked also.

melissa bee said...

good morning c.c. and all,

nice softball puzzle for a monday. did not like amuck, but did like how it crosses play.

to make a singular noun possessive, add an 's, even if the noun ends with an s, i.e., 'elvis's song.' the s' is used for plural nouns, i.e, 'my kids' report cards' (plural posessive).

c.c., i like your 'flower holder' clue for stem. it occurred to me that in native tradition, the stem of the peace pipe represents the masculine, and the bowl represents the feminine, so 'pipe part' could be either stem or flower. also noticed that it crosses eats .. and by now we're clear that both flowers and stems are edible.

prayers to all in gustav's path.

C.C. Burnikel said...

Thanks. I forgot to ask you a question after reading your "sour grapes" comment on ISLS last Saturday. Do you say "He is such a sour grapes" or "He is such a sour grape" (singular form)?

Who is the lady on your arm?

Ah, I forgot that you were very educated on how to connecting the tenon of pipe STEM to the mortise of pipe BOWL. Maybe I should have written the STEM clue as "FLOWER holder" so Xchefwalt would not have missed his boat.

Argyle said...

BTW, look up snee in your dictionary. I was surprised when I did!

c.c., yes, "Likely Sounds" was the given theme. I will give them to you IF I get them.

I don't think PLAY ME OR TRADE ME is an an antonym either, is it? In fact, none of them really are.
ever or never
stay or leave
"or not" could be added to anything.

stop or I'll shoot
"Love Me or Leave Me" is a U.S. popular song from the 1920s. Sung by Doris day, among others.

Argyle said...

for this crowd, I got that backwards; it should be "love me or leave me" and then "stop or I'll shoot".

Ken said...

Shipboard use of the word "boom" depends upon the ship and rigging syle. On a square-rigged sailing vessel, sails rigged outboard of the regulars are termed studding sails or "stuns'ls". As Drdad noted, the horizontal pole is termed a "yard" and the extention of that yard is the stuns'l "boom". In fore-and aft rigged ships such as sloops, yawls, ketches and schooners, the horizontal pole, securing the bottom of the sail is termed a boom as Sallie noted.
Other uses of the term boom on a ship refer to wooden (or steel these days) poles with winches and pulleys. They are rigged to pivot or swivel to facilitate loading and unloading of cargo.

Argyle said...

C. C. said@9:11am
"Today I’ll be practicing my 8 ounce flips and my 12 ounce curls". What does it mean?

I think he is saying that he is grilling big burgers and drinking some cold ones and now if I can find a barbecue to drop in on....

Argyle said...

ummm, 8oz might be steaks. In any case, it's where I'd like to be.

Anonymous said...

Jeanne is correct about using 's for words that then pronounce the s. Her examples of Lloyd Bridges' home is perfect. To say "Bridgeses" is awkward. In the old, really old, days when I was in school, we were taught that a word ending in s took only the apostrophe.
I have done a fair amount of sailing, always in small (sleeps 4–6) boats, and the horizontal poles were only referred to as booms.

carol said...

Good Morning C.C.and D.F's: Cannot believe it is Sept. 1 already! Where did the last 3 months go? I always think of this day as the first of Fall although I know technically it is not. I'm sure all the kids feel that way!

Fairly easy puzzle for me. I'm glad since I wouldn't want another "Saturday" one so soon.

I agree with Barry and Drdad about 26A, to vague. I thought of Roman numerals too.

I am keeping good thoughts for our friends in the Gulf area. Hope the surge is less than they are predicting. Stay safe.

Clear Ayes said...

Good Morning All,
I bet Drdad and Dennis had this puzzle figured out before they even took up their pencils (or are they inkers too?).

It was a easy Monday morning with only 27D and 28D giving a problem. I didn't know "Whitney's partner". "Whitney Houston?...Eli Whitney?", but with a quick complete of the surrounds I got both PRATT and LOGIA.

I hope no "Crabbies" minded if I "G'd" after completion to learn more about who and what these words meant.

C.C. I'm not familiar with SARA Teasdale, but I am all "poet-ed" out today, after yesterday. Perhaps I'll look her up later.

Maybe I'm not quite through with poetry. You know I'm a sucker for Shakespeare. His lines are ultimate poetry. A lovely movie is 1999 A Midsummer Night's Dream. Gorgeous Rupert Evert (don't bother, ladies) and luscious Michelle Pfeiffer, as OBERON and Titania make this a very easy introduction to a delightful play.

I think the lady with Ken might be a daughter on her way down the aisle (not ISLS) as a bride. She looks delighted, he looks like a slightly nervous father.

Lois, you should be the authority on "'s". Would you write "Lois's suit of armor" or "Lois' suit of armor"?

It looks like Gustav has settled down into a Catagory 2. We can only hope that it dies down quickly and that our Louisiana friends escape serious flooding and other difficulties.

DoesItinInk said...

I too found this puzzle to be very, very problems, no surprises, though I have never seen the spelling AMUCK.

SNEE is easy for me to remember from one of my favorite Gilbert and Sullivan's operettas, The Mikado, when the Lord Hight Executioner sings "As he squirmed and struggled, / And gurgled and guggled, / I drew my snickersnee!" The Criminal Cried

I too love opera, and Puccini is one of my favorite composers. And I love Maria Callas! Her voice was supurb if sometimes inconsistent, but her fire, passion and superior acting skills put her a head above others!

xchefwalt said...

@c.c.- Argyle is correct- 8 ounce burgers and 12 ounce beers. The menu also includes grilled garlic brats (made by hand by a German sausage maker who is a customer of mine) Teriyaki glazed chicken brochettes, London Broil and balsamic grilled vegetables (eggplant, zucchini, onions, portabella mushrooms, roma tomatoes), plus buffalo cheesesticks, chicken wings, chips, salsa potato chips and onion dip. No edible FLOWERS as the best ones are too far away.

It’s noon here in SW Florida, that means it’s happy hour in England. All are welcome if you can find my door.

The boat is sailing now.

Razz said...

CC - This old dog learned a new trick today! I too (like Sallie), was taught that if a word ended with an s then only the apostrophe was necessary. In fact my Sr. high school English teacher would give you a whack with her pointer if you made that mistake. I guess the new rule is to add the 's in the case of a singular noun that becomes possessive. BTW Microsoft Word spell check only adds the apostrophe after words ending in S regardless of singular or plural.

Use it or lose it!

No G-spots today...shucks!

Thank you for the nice words the other day. ;~)

carol said...

xchefwalt, count me in on your BBQ!! Sounds yummy and the "sun is over the yardarm" in "Merry ol' England"! I'll have the Teriyaki chicken and several of the 12 oz beers.:)
What are salsa potato chips? Sounds interesting!

Clear Ayes, you mentioned "crabbies" minding if you goggled words to find their meaning. I think that's a great way to learn and I do it all the time, why would someone mind? Do they want to remain in the dark? Did I miss something? :)

Barb B said...

Today’s puzzle was a relief to me after Saturday’s fiasco.

I’m having a little trouble grokking the ‘s rules. All I remember from pre-university school (40 year gap) is the apostrophe after the s shows possession, and then I get lost. I use spell check a LOT.

Like Flyingears, I wanted Logos, but checked I Wikipedia, and found this-

“In New Testament criticism, the term logia (Greek: "sayings, utterances, oracles", singular: logion) is applied to a supposed collection of sayings of Jesus believed to be referred to by Papias.”
Papias was a bishop, c 60 - 130)

Logos vs Logia is an example of a common situation in seminaries that teach both spiritual formation and theology. The disciplines each require predominately either left brain thinking or right brain thinking, and it’s a challenge to understand a subject that forces you use whichever side of your brain you aren’t normally comfortable with.

The history of how the current Bible came into being is really a fascinating study, and a perfect example. It isn’t an either/or thing; just a matter of perspective. Was the source of the gosple the person LOGOS (right brain), or the earliest book of his sayings, logias (left brain)?

Crockett1947 said...

Good morning everyone! Happy to report that my wife is home and healing well.

Easy puzzle today, even though there were some unknown names, they were gettable from the perps. ESTELLES, STAN, ELAM, OBERON, and LOGIA and AMUCK. I always thought AMOK was the proper spelling -- must be a variant.

Nice theme! Possesive of a noun that end is s may be indicated with just and apostrophe or with the apostrophe and the additional s.

The music on Tara's SP was very nice. You have good taste in music (comment from my wife).

The Bartok didn't sit well. Yes, in a vocal quartet, bass is one of the parts. No opera fans here.

@argyle Like your additions.

@boomer Stop calling yourself a doofus!

@walt What a feast!! Hope you have a grand time.

Anyone is Gustav's path -- stay safe!

Ken said...

Clear Ayes, you get bonus points. That is my daughter and we are just ab0out to walk down the aisle. I don't think I was nervous, but a bit relieved maybe. She'd raised two kids alone and this was a real risk for her. Fortunately, she found a good man and they are quite content.
Off for our annual Labor Day potluck/crib tournament.

And yes, good hopes and prayers for the folks in Gustav's gunsight.

Dick said...

Good afternoon all. Got a late start today. The puzzle was was and I worked it in Dennis time. I needed this one after a couple of debacles last week. I needed the ego fix.

Cc I also had ESTELLAS for awhile and I also did not see anything wrong with OBARON but a quick tripto Mr. G. after I finished the CW corrected that error.

I got LOGIA from the perps and it was not a gimme. Back in the day I used to work for PRATT & WHITNEY so that was a gimme.

Clear Ayes said...

Carol, "Crabbies", just a passing comment on a couple of yesterday's posts. I probably shouldn't have brought it up, but I couldn't resist a little last dig.

Doesitinink, I grew up with Gilbert & Sullivan alternating with operatic arias every Sunday morning. It was my father's way of saying, "You've slept enough." I hated it at the time, but it (finally) instilled a love of classical music.

I never learned the (mostly) Italian lyrics of arias, but I know "The Pirates of Penzance" from "Pour, Oh Pour the Pirate Sherry" to the much fun! "The Mikado" was my mother's favorite. She went from singing along with Yum-Yum to singing a stern "daughter-in-law elect" Katisha.

Xchefwalt, today is burgers for us too, but not all the tasty "go-withs" You've got a lucky crew!

Anonymous said...

mark - Buenos Aires

I, too, was taught the s´ rule but moving to London in the 70´s I encountered St James´s on street and area names. Surely the good people of London hadn´t named the area wrong in 1660?

I am still confused of the matter to this day. Do the USA know the vintner "Grants of St James´s"?

I hope all goes well with you.

carol said...

Thanks Clear Ayes, I don't get the same Sunday puzzle you all do so I don't often check in on Sun.

Crockett, so glad your wife is getting better..amazing that they kick people out of the hospital so soon after surgery but maybe it's better since there are some horrific bacteria hanging around the wards.

Ken, where is your cribbage tournament held? I love the game and have played since I was about 9. Don't know if I am good enough for tournament play, but is there a "club" or cribbage-related get-together in the Portland area?

Barry G. said...

Thanks. I forgot to ask you a question after reading your "sour grapes" comment on ISLS last Saturday. Do you say "He is such a sour grapes" or "He is such a sour grape" (singular form)?

Neither, actually. I would never use "sour grapes" to describe a person. The idiomatic expression "sour grapes" refers to a situation where somebody doesn't get what they want and then claims they didn't really want it in the first place because it's not very good. It doesn't usually refer to the person.

KittyB said...

Good afternoon, C.C.

I think today's entries on your blog are top-notch! The range of information provided is extensive, and it's nicely balanced off by the camaraderie of this puzzle-loving family. I hate it when I have to miss a day with all of you.

I was going to respond on the spar/boom/yard issue, but others have done it well. Dear Husband had a little (16') day-sailer that had a "boom-vang." If I understand it correctly, the vang provides downward force on a boom, to keep the boom horizontal. His boom-vang was set up to shift from port to starboard with the wind (and back), and you had to be alert or the boom would bash you up the side of the head!

I wasn't familiar with LOGIA, but my sister sees to a LOGOS program for her church, and I thought the words would be related. I'll have to go back and read the comments on the right brain/left brain aspects of the two words.

DALE MURPHY and JASON ELAM were NOT gimmies for me. I rarely get any of the athlete names. The fills usually save me.

Melissa bee, thanks for the 'plural possessive' information.

flyingears, how did you come to study Greek? "...which was the language spoken in the early century." I've missed something. Which early century? Are you referring to biblical times or earlier?

I hope you're all enjoying the last of our Labor Day weekend, relaxing before you have to return to your labors. Those of you in the Gulf, stay high and dry!

embien said...

7:14 today, no unknowns.

22a: Old World (EUROPEAN) is OK because it isn't necessarily the noun form. So, "Old World antiques", e.g., and not "Old World" = Europe (the noun form).

So far, so good, for Gustav (2:30 pm EDT), but all the TV reporters are in New Orleans and not where the storm is worst, it appears (eye over Morgan City, LA, worst wind around Pascagoula, MS).

Argyle said...

A couple more:

Live Free or Die - New Hampshire motto

California or Bust - Ah shoot, one too many letters.

flyingears said...


I learned Greek in school as an elective. Koiné Greek WAS the spoken AND written language common in that era (First century). Much has changed since, mostly in pronunciation. Greek IS a very beautiful and rich language, BUT quite difficult to learn. I know how to read it, but can't speak a word of it without a dictionary very close to my lap... Although the four Gospels were written in Koiné Greek, the Gospels were mostly part of the Old Testament, but were included in the New Testament because of Jesus' "Good News" and the "salvation" message being the way to get into heaven. The Old Testament depended on the Mosaic Law, which showed why humanity was doom to being imperfect in the eyes of God: the necessity of a Savior, Christ (Jesus) came about...

Argyle said...

ok, how 'bout:

Publish or perish - pressure to publish work constantly in order to further or sustain one's career in academia.

steve said...

good morning CC & DF's

This is the fastest I have evere completed one of these. I didn't time it, but it must of been about 10-15 minutes. this is good considering I got up a 2AM to go dove hunting with Lola. What a mistake. two hour drive, stumble out into a safflower field at 5. Didn't see a bird until 8:15. Too cold and too windy. Left for home at 9:30 with one dove. Lola had fun though.

I had a little trouble with LOGIA but got it with the perps, same with 55A. Pratt was a gimme. I have thousands of hours with them. The other big aircraft engine makers are GE and Roles Royce

September 1, 2008 2:39 PM

ALucidDreamUndreamt said...

i enjoyed the "Sonata for solo violin" clip. I just started m lessons about 3 weeks ago. I had my third lesson today. Love it. I have a black violin. It's a beauty

JD said...

Good afternoon C.C. & all,
Today's puzzle was easier for me than lastweek's batch. But I was stuck on 27D, 28D, & 38A. Never heard of Pratt;should have asked hubby who gave me Elam. I kept thinking Brown(Bobby), and then I researched Mt. Whitney to see if it had a twin peak.Beautiful pictures,but no partner. Unfamiliar with ague and logia.

Enjoy this beautiful day.

ALucidDreamUndreamt said...

Oh and speaking of religion, today is the beginning of Ramadan and Rosh Chodesh Elul

melissa bee said...

flyingears wrote: "Although the four Gospels were written in Koiné Greek, the Gospels were mostly part of the Old Testament, but were included in the New Testament because of Jesus' "Good News" [...]

hm. i have *never* heard of the gospels being part of the old testament. the old testament was written in hebrew, the new testament in greek. the new testament as a whole is sometimes referred to as 'the gospel,' and does mean 'good news,' (from greek god+spell), but the gospels are the first four books of the new testament: matthew, mark, luke, and john, and are first-hand accounts of jesus's life by eye witnesses. the birth of jesus is what separates the old and new testaments - so the gospels would have no place in the OT.

i like your new pic .. is that you? when was it taken?

Clear Ayes said...

Flyingears, is that your plane next to you in the new photo?

Sallie, your photo looks kind of like Macchu Pichu in the background. Is that it? If not, where?

Crockett1947, glad your wife is home and recuperating well. I bet you are taking very good care of her after Saturday's scare.

Aluciddreamundreamt, you are a busy guy, with school and now learning to play the violin. It isn't an easy instrument to master. My sister plays well, but I gave up after about a dozen lessons. I now wish I would have stuck with it.

Barb B said...

Interestingly enough, the term sour grapes is mentioned in the Old Testament.

Jeremiah wrote that a common saying of his time (around 640-609 BC) was..
'The parents have eaten sour grapes,
and the children's teeth are set on edge.

Just a little trivia that stuck in my mind.

C.C. Burnikel said...

You made it back! Good to finally see you. When and where was the picture taken?

Barb B,
You look as lovely as Melissa. I like your sour grapes trivia.

"Once a Beaver, always a Beaver. Once a Duck, always a duck. Once a knight....", always a what?

Argyle @ 10:28am,
"or this crowd, I got that backwards; it should be "love me or leave me" and then "stop or I'll shoot". Why this order? "California or Bust - Ah shoot, one too many letters."??? Arnold?

It seems to me that you've got lots of inspiration from E_T_ _ _ E (Clio's sister) lately. Where can I find mine?

C.C. Burnikel said...

Who is your Lola?

FYI: Doesitinink is a she.

Dick said...

Flyigears is that a Cessna 150 in your photo?

Anonymous said...

Clear ayes and C.C.: yes, the background is Machu Picchu which is a most eye–opening place to visit. How clever of you, Clear Ayes to recognize it. Have you been there? And we have Schipperkes in common too.
C.C.: thanks for the tip on getting back on. I hadn't realized that using "edit" would be the way to get a picture on. I am a Mac user and therefore technologically challenged.

flyingears said...

I know your concern as it was mine. The fact is that Jesus was born in OT times, BUT His message was appropriate for the NT times. It is a fact that they belong to the NT times but they were written during OT times. Dispensasionalists take the NT times AFTER Paul's conversion. I don't. I take the Bible as a whole even though we are NT people.. It's an interesting issue, but not for this blog to get into too deeply....

No, it is not my plane. I used to fly the bird. Belongs to the Flying club, which I don't belong to any longer.

Is it ebony wood or what? That type of wood is quite expensive as only 10 % is usable for instruments (clarinet, oboe, etc.) It must have a nice sound... FYI, I enjoyed your art. Quite nice. You must be a left-sided brain: artistic. I live in Ponce and full blooded PR, retired ENT guy.

lois said...

the vang provides downward force on a boom, to keep the boom horizontal. His boom-vang was set up to shift from port to starboard with the wind (and back), and you had to be alert or the boom would bash you up the side of the head!

kitty b: Isn't that the vangedest truth! It is all about the downward force. Some boom-vangs are just so shifty it's hard for them to keep anything horizontal - and then ya have to duck the vanged things when they swing! I should be so lucky to have such a huge morel issue. Gives a whole new meaning to boom 'er sooner!
...oh wait! Are you talking about a boat?

CC: I'm still learning English myself. I read the subtitles and study the story beforehand. I just love the music and everything about opera. It fills all my senses... well,the sense of touch is satisfied later however.

Clear Ayes: I was taught s' regardless. Melissa's explanation makes perfect sense to me. I'll get an official ruling from the school's guru when I can reach him.

JD said...

oops! Thanks C.C.
Sorry about that, doesitinink

flyingears said...

No, it is not my plane. I used to fly the bird. Belongs to the Flying club, which I don't belong to any longer. I meant to respond to you,but I responded to cleareyes... Confusion.... ; /

Barb B said...

Agreed; we want to avoid any religious controversy – I am truly uncomfortable with that. But history is pretty interesting, which I think was the original subject. Where the books came from – logos vs loggias – is a legitimate historical question.

I think dispensationalism at the very least borders on religion, as a VERY religious foundation for end times theology: a can of worms for sure.

Malichi is considered to be the last book in the OT, and it was 400 years after that was written until the first book of gospels was written, followed by many others within 100 years. Thus, the dividing of the two books; or more appropriately, the two books of books.

So….isn’t it a matter of perspective?

DoesItinInk said...

jd: No offense taken. Really!

Crockett1947 said...

C.C., Once a knight (night) is not enough. I was off on a df tangent there.

Barb B said...

Lucid Dreamer,
I visited your website, and really love it. So many talents! I would love to see you dance.

Thanks for mentioning Ramadan and Rosh Chodesh. I had to google the second one, and I'm so happy I did.

Melissa Bee, do you know about Rosh Chodesh? It is a Jewish celebration of the beginning of each month, but according to one website, has "blossomed into a celebration of women and femininity. Sounds like something for your girls group, but then I know you have been celebrating women together for a long time now.

I may investigate more for my own group.

Crockett - I knew about once a knight, and laughed out loud when I read it. You and Argyle are batting 1000 on the df scale these days.

flyingears said...


That's a Cessna 172. Nice bird to fly around, BUT fuel is way over my pocket. Few pilots are flying routinely.

ALucidDreamUndreamt said...

flyingears my mom is from Ponce. I've been to PR 4 times. Love it there. I think right-side of the brain is the artistic side.

C.C. Burnikel said...

Thanks the Shostakovich yesterday. I could not find your exact "fingerwork" quote, but I think you were complimenting on Clear Ayes (or someone else) for "doing the fingerwork" on some of your exclamation phrase.

D'oh! But what a wonderful night! My mind was in sports (Beaver, Duck), so I thought of Bobby Knight.

Crockett1947 said...

C.C., see what a little diversion can do? Set 'em up and knock 'em down.

Clear Ayes said...

Sallie, I got the spelling "c's" reversed in Machu Picchu, but you knew what I meant. No, I haven't been there....yet. About 20 years ago a very good friend of mine went on her own and did the hiking trail. She wanted me to go with her, but I wasn't able to go. This photo Huayna Picchu is the most famous view and you were standing there. What a thrill that must have been.

C.C. What a memory you have! I do remember Kittyb saying something about my doing some "fingerwork" in looking up something that had been mentioned on the blog. I don't remember specifically what it was though. Do you make notes to keep all of this straight? If you do...that's amazing, and if you don't....that's astounding!

Argyle said...

What I'm saying is; picture a couple in bed and the woman says, "Love me or leave me" and the man gets up to leave. This is not what she wants so she says, "Stop or I'll shoot".

"California or Bust" 16 letters won't fit 15*15.

Buckeye said...

Guday c.c. and all. Easy ride today after Saturday's "brain buster". Had no problem with 22(a) clue. If someone has an "old world attitude" you might say he has a "European Attitude" rather than a "Europe attitude".

Bad Gustav!! Go away. Hope all who experienced him are safe. He's off toward Houston, where I have relatives. Hope he's a small breeze by then.

Crockett1947; Glad your wife is doing well.

@kittyb; "Boom-vang?" Sounds like a bullet bouncing off of a rock.

@dream; Send a pic of your violin.

@flyingears; I used to jump from a Cessna 172.

To my new SEC friends; I happy for your victories, esp. Florida and Georgia. U of G fans, I did not get your game here in Ohio but was dying to see your new "Uga". (7?). For those who don't know, Uga is a real bulldog and is the mascot for the sports teams at U.G. He is truly as cute as the co-eds in Athens. A great mascot rating up there with Navy's goat and Evergreen (Wa.) College's geoducks. G8tormomx2; Get U.F. to get a real 'gator and run him out on a leash. If Georgia and U. of Colorado (real Buffalo) can do it, so can Florida.

To my friends in Ann Arbor and Lansing, Michigan, I commiserate. U of M lost to the mighty "Runnin' Utes" of Utah and M.S.U. lost to University of California (Berkley). But hang tough. It's a long season and the Lansing Lugnuts are in the playoffs. (c.c.; The Lugnuts is the Class A baseball team affiliated with the Toronto Blue Jays).

And, yes, the buckeye is a worthless nut of the buckeye tree. The meat is uneatable (sp), and toxic. If you consumed it, you develop muscle tremors, a goose stepping movement and will fall on your side and thrash around. (At least a cow will. I think a human just dies.) It has a very hard shell and you would not want to be hit on the head with one. (Not that an Ohioan would ever hurl one at another person). Squirrels will eat them if they are literally starving to death.

My Buckeyes were great in their win over the ferocious Youngstown State Penguins. Try as I might, outside of a zoo, I cannot find a wild penguin in the entire state of Ohio.

That's it!! As c.c. once said better one long one than a few short ones.

I must be off.

Argyle said...

Sorry c.c., I didnt get your Arnold comment at first.

1849 was the date of the California Gold Rush and many prospectors from the East set out for the gold fields with the sign, "CALIFORNIA OR BUST" on their wagons or their gear.

Later settlers often had it on their prairie schooners. I couldn't find a good image though.

KittyB said...

Thanks, flyingears.

lucid....good luck with those violin lessons. Remember, "Practice, practice, practice!"

Crockett, I hope Mrs. Crockett is resting comfortably, and on her way to feeling well.

Mark B.A., I've never heard of that vintner, but I have a lot of labels left to visit. Is there one of their wines you'd care to recommend?

Lois, I'm always happy to provide you a starting place for a flight of fancy. Oh, wait...that was sailing I was talking about. *G*

clear ayes and C.C. from what you've been able to remember, I assume that I had thanked clear ayes for either surfing for information, or for typing it out in the comments here. You know….”Let your fingers do the walking”??

xchef, how did the 8's and 12's go? It sounded like quite the last fling in your neck of the woods.

Welcome back, sallie.

C.C.,I’d never heard that Bartok piece. I love his work based on the Eastern European folk songs. Like Shostakovich (both composed during the first half of the 20th century), Bartok experimented with more atonal music as he grew older. I was interested to learn that both Fritz Reiner and George Solti had studied with Bartok, and both conducted the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. I’ve never heard overtones and effects from a violin as in the linked performance.

Anonymous said...


I wanted to reply to this question by C.C., But you did it so well that all I can add is "Amen". I'm referring of course to the phrase "The Word was made flesh". You did a marvelous job in explaining it. I also noticed that there was little discussion for follow up.

kazie said...

luciddreamer, you are right, the right brain controls the left side of the body and vice versa. Hence, left handers are the only ones in their right minds!

Glad Ms. crockett is home and doing well. I had my appendix out on my fifth birthday, and had to stay there a week...not a good childhood memory.

When is hurricane season over? It's time all the Gustavs moved on. Hope everyone is OK down there.

Had no problems today, but c.c., I do need the second names in clues sometimes--the athletes mean nothing to me.

melissa bee said...

@barb b: Melissa Bee, do you know about Rosh Chodesh?

no, i didn't. thanks to you and luciddream i will investigate. my girls are always open to opportunities for sacred celebrations.

@lois: i'm so glad you jumped on that sailing mast/boom thing ....

@crockett: well wishes for mrs. crockett.

Crockett1947 said...

Thank you all for the good thoughts for my wife, Ms. Gent. She would be the first to inform you that she is NOT Mrs. Crockett!

embien said...

What I'm saying is; picture a couple in bed and the woman says, "Love me or leave me" and the man gets up to leave. This is not what she wants so she says, "Stop or I'll shoot".

Or perhaps she is doing something "nasty" to him and he says "Stop, or I'll shoot".

Bad embien, bad. Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Clear Ayes said...

Home from the Labor Day BBQ. Too much food and just the right amount of Mojitos!

I can see that the Sirens have been demure today and the gentlemen have been acting know who you are.

Except for Buckeye, who seems to have the milk of human kindness oozing out of every pore, including the tongue in his cheek. Hang in there, Buckeye. This too shall pass. BTW, whose photo are you posting? I rather liked the first one; a photo with a lot of character, or was it a photo of a character? ;o)

Anonymous said...

This is the fastest I have evere completed one of these. I didn't time it, but it must of been about 10-15 minutes. this is good considering I got up a 2AM to go dove hunting with Lola. What a mistake. two hour drive, stumble out into a safflower field at 5. Didn't see a bird until 8:15. Left for home at 9:30 with one dove. Lola had fun though.

I had a little trouble with LOGIA but got it with the perps, same with 55A. Pratt was a gimme. I have thousands of hours with them. The other big aircraft engine makers are GE and Roles Royce